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Old Mon Feb 28, 2011, 01:03pm
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"Short Gyms" Division Line is still Division Line?

Short court division line extended?

Some of the Middle School courts in my area are quite dated. Some still have fan shaped backboards. In many of them the courts are shorter than "regulation" in length and/or width. I am sure I am not the only one to have worked a court that was so short the top of the 3pt-arcs and the center circles were almost touching.

Anyway, I had a long time coach tell me something I have never heard of before. I'm thinking myth here, but wanted to see if anyone else has heard of this or can back it up as ever being true.

After a game a coach tells me that when the court is "short" in length, our 10sec count still goes to the division line, but once they gain FC status the division line is extended into BC several feet. He says that there are often lines on the court indicating the "new division line". I see the markings on the floor he is referring to, but I've always thought these were for volleyball or some other activity.

ANYONE heard of this?
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Old Mon Feb 28, 2011, 01:07pm
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Yes, we have them around here in a few places ....... becoming fewer fortunately. Here there are 3 lines in those gyms. The division line, then the other two are measured from the endline where the division line would be on a regulation court.
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Old Mon Feb 28, 2011, 01:11pm
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Well like I always say, doesn't matter if you have officiated for 5 minutes or 50 years... you learn something "new" every season.

Now the question I have for you is do the lines your speaking of go all the way across the court (sideline-sideline) ?

The ones this coach pointed out were not solid all the way across, like I said in OP I am almost sure these particular lines are for volleyball. If working a "short court" and these lines are not marked, I am guessing you just go with the marked division line?
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Last edited by NoFussRef; Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 01:28pm.
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Old Mon Feb 28, 2011, 01:34pm
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In a properly marked gym, they'd be full lines from sideline to sideline.

The rule specifies alternative lines when the gym is shorter than 74 feet....and those lines should be 40 feet from the FC endline.

In the event they're not painted and the court is truly a very short court, I'd designate some marking on the court as the division line, even if it is not complete, with a word to the coaches and players that you'll only consider a violation regarding the line to have occurred if it is absolutely clear that they player stepped on/over the line or extended line.

The court you're talking about sounds like it was around 62' (25' to the top of the key plus 6' for the half circle....all times 2). That court definitely needs alternative backcourt lines.
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Old Mon Feb 28, 2011, 01:39pm
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Thanks for help on this. Learned something "new" I can incorporate into pre-game with partners and coaches when this situation arrises.

Also can't wait to see this coach again and thank him as well.
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Old Mon Feb 28, 2011, 01:55pm
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My son's team plays against a school that has this situation. Their court has three lines - the "normal" center court line for the center circle jump ball and subsequent quarter throw-ins, and then two other lines about 5 feet on either side of that. To get into the frontcourt, you have to cross the extra line closest to your basket (not the center line), and then to have an over and back violation, you have to cross the line farthest from your basket.

Kind of weird the first few times we played there, but now everyone knows and it's no big deal.
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Old Mon Feb 28, 2011, 02:10pm
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I usually check would site management or the home team to find out how the court is generally played. I've never seen it done with partial lines, though.
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Old Mon Feb 28, 2011, 02:13pm
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I used to play in an outdoor court pick up game in Florday in the 80s on a court with these types of markings. Everyone who played there knew and enforced the backcourt rule. If you were new to the court, tough luck and don't make the same mistake again.

That court had some really good games but weird structure. Saw more than a few players slam into the poles holding up the backboard that were right next to the endline. A little bump on an endline drive and slam!
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Old Mon Feb 28, 2011, 02:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad View Post
My son's team plays against a school that has this situation. Their court has three lines - the "normal" center court line for the center circle jump ball and subsequent quarter throw-ins, and then two other lines about 5 feet on either side of that. To get into the frontcourt, you have to cross the extra line closest to your basket (not the center line), and then to have an over and back violation, you have to cross the line farthest from your basket.

Kind of weird the first few times we played there, but now everyone knows and it's no big deal.
Ah, good point. So to clarify...

10sec count till offense crosses the division line nearest their FC endline, then no BC violation unless they cross back over the division line farthest from their FC endline.
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Old Mon Feb 28, 2011, 02:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFussRef View Post
Ah, good point. So to clarify...

10sec count till offense crosses the division line nearest their FC endline, then no BC violation unless they cross back over the division line farthest from their FC endline.
Typically, check with the home team, though, and make sure everyone (coaches) is on the same page.
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Old Mon Feb 28, 2011, 03:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFussRef View Post
Ah, good point. So to clarify...

10sec count till offense crosses the division line nearest their FC endline, then no BC violation unless they cross back over the division line farthest from their FC endline.
In this particular gym - yes.

Made for some pretty interesting crowd reactions the first year we played that school. Took some explaining to some of the other parents to get them to calm down!
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Old Mon Feb 28, 2011, 03:08pm
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SECTION 3 CENTER RESTRAINING CIRCLE, DIVIDING LINE

ART. 2 . . . A division line 2 inches wide, shall divide the court into two equal
arts. If the court is less than 74 feet long, it should be divided by two lines, each parallel to and 40 feet from the farther end line.


I believe that the DL line is still used for the 10-second line, and the BC line for a BC violation. IOW, a team gets 40 feet of FC space in which to work.
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Old Mon Feb 28, 2011, 03:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad View Post
To get into the frontcourt, you have to cross the extra line closest to your basket (not the center line), and then to have an over and back violation, you have to cross the line farthest from your basket.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFussRef View Post
10sec count till offense crosses the division line nearest their FC endline, then no BC violation unless they cross back over the division line farthest from their FC endline.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Typically, check with the home team, though, and make sure everyone (coaches) is on the same page.
Which line is to be used for the purposes of the 10 second count is not specified in the book and I could see arguments for using any of the three.

However, I'd be inclined to use one line for each team for all purposes...the one farthest from their basket.

The main purpose of the 10 second count is to prevent a team from using the space of the entire court for more than 10 seconds, not that they have to move it forward a certain distance. Once they've got it past the line farthest from their basket, they'd be in the space normally permitted.

Whatever you choose, COMMUNICATE it.

Last time I had this situation, it was when two teams both had facilities problems and were using another gym that they could get....one unfamiliar to either. Well before tipoff, we informed the coaches and suggested they instruct their players.

Just before tip-off, I took a moment to address the small crowd to avoid the inevitable screaming for over-and-back...no need getting them all worked up over an unusual situation. It still happened with a few late arrivals. Usually, the fans near them clued them in. In a couple of cases, I informed them during a timeout/intermissions. Once everyone knew the situation, there was no issue.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 05:46pm.
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Old Mon Feb 28, 2011, 03:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Which line is to be used for the purposes of the 10 second count is not specified in the book and I could see arguments for using any of the three.

However, I'd be inclined to use the one line for each team for all purposes...the one farthest from their basket.

The main purpose of the 10 second count is to prevent a team from using the space of the entire court for more than 10 seconds, not that they have to move it forward a certain distance. Once they've got it past the line farthest from their basket, they'd be in the space normally permitted.

Whatever you choose, COMMUNICATE it.

Last time I had this situation, it was when two teams both had facilities problems and were using another gym that they could get....one unfamiliar to either. Well before tipoff, we informed the coaches and suggested they instruct their players.

Just before tip-off, I took a moment to address the small crowd to avoid the inevitable screaming for over-and-back...no need getting them all worked up over an unusual situation. It still happened with a few late arrivals. Usually, the fans near them clued them in. In a couple of cases, I informed them during a timeout/intermissions. Once everyone knew the situation, there was no issue.
This is good advice for anything that is out of the ordinary - and out of the ordinary from the players and coaches and fans' perspective, not the official's.

Also good advice. I had an OT football game last season, with a very large. I know that addressing the fans made a world of difference.
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Old Mon Feb 28, 2011, 03:52pm
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I worked a tiny court with that rule this year. First time in six years. Needed a GPS to find the place.

There was only the two-foot circle for the jump ball (we had to "guess" six feet for everyone else -- it worked), and we used the volleyball lines (which didn't extend all the way across) as division lines, once the center division line was crossed. The table was in a corner, too.

Sometimes, you just have to make do with what you have.
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