Disqualification Substitutes ...

[bob jenkins]

No one disputed what's in the slides. Still doesn't answer the test question.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

No one disputed what's in the slides. Still doesn't answer the test question.

Agree that the wording in NFHS 2024-25 Editorial Rule Change 3-3-1-C-Note is quite poor.

NFHS 2024-25 Editorial Rule Change 3-3-1-C-Note: When a player is disqualified or directed to leave the game, both teams my substitute up until it is time to put the ball in play.

Explanation: If any player has been directed to leave the game, an exception permits substitutes from both teams who have legally reported to the scorer to enter the game before the last free throw ... All substitutes meeting this exception may enter the game until the official has beckoned the required sub onto the floor. At that time, any additional substitutes reporting to the table must wait until the first of two or the second of three free throws to enter the game.

But so is 2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretation Situation 10 due to the added complexity of a timeout.

2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
Situation 10: A1 fouls out of the game. The Team A coach talks to a substitute and within 15 seconds sends the substitute to the table to report in the game. A Team B player then requests a time-out. RULING: Since a time-out may not be granted until a disqualified player is replaced, the administering official should ask the substitute at the table if he/she is the replacement for A1. If so, the time-out may be granted. If not, the substitute shall remain at the table and the coach must still replace A1 within the specified timeframe before the time-out may be granted. (3-3-1, 5-8-3b, 10-6-2)

On the other hand, the 2003-04 NFHS Points of Emphasis is very clearly written, simple, and straightforward.

2003-04 NFHS Points of Emphasis
5) Substituting Player - Disqualifications
H) If a substitute from the non-offending team or a substitute for the offending team for someone other than the disqualified player reports to the scorer during the wait for the required substitute, they may enter the game.

So again I ask: Was there ever a NFHS rule that said no substitutes until a replacement is made? If so, did that change, and if there was a change, when?

Can somebody actually cite the original rule (or mechanic) that said no substitutes until a replacement is made?

We do have such a clear, simple, and straightforward rule to deny a timeout request until a replacement is made.

Rule 5 - Section 8 Time-Out, Stopping Play
Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, must be stopped when an official:
Art.. 3 . . . Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:
b. The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is available and required.

Why can't we pinpoint such a clear, simple, and straightforward rule that denies substitutes until a replacement is made?

[SNIPERBBB]

Why do you need a rule here? We don't skip straight to getting subs before any other to dead ball business that we are doing. They're last priority.

Make report
Go through DQ process if needed
Grant TO if requested
Beckon Subs
Resume Play.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Why do you need a rule here? We don't skip straight to getting subs before any other to dead ball business that we are doing.

Ignore this?

2003-04 NFHS Points of Emphasis
5) Substituting Player - Disqualifications
H) If a substitute from the non-offending team or a substitute for the offending team for someone other than the disqualified player reports to the scorer during the wait for the required substitute, they may enter the game.

Please give me a simple citation (rule or mechanic) that says otherwise.

Try to avoid citing 2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretation Situation 10 due to the added complexity of a timeout request.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Ignore this?

2003-04 NFHS Points of Emphasis
5) Substituting Player - Disqualifications
H) If a substitute from the non-offending team or a substitute for the offending team for someone other than the disqualified player reports to the scorer during the wait for the required substitute, they may enter the game.

Please give me a simple citation (rule or mechanic) that says otherwise.

Try to avoid citing 2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretation Situation 10 due to the added complexity of a timeout request.

Sure but note that the rule says "may" you don't have to bring them in at that time. You can do what you want as long as your crew isn't distracted.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Sure but note that the rule says "may" you don't have to bring them in at that time.

Would love to see a simple citation that says that you don't have to bring them in at that time, that it's "optional".

Again, try to avoid citing 2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretation Situation 10 due to the added complexity of a timeout request.

I'm really starting to believe that what I used to think was an actual rule was, in reality, a local "best practice" (always wear black underpants, always carry a second whistle, always carry a pin in your jacket pocket) to ensure that the disqualified player was replaced in a correct, organized, and timely manner.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Would love to see a simple citation that says that you don't have to bring them in at that time, that it's "optional".

Again, try to avoid citing 2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretation Situation 10 due to the added complexity of a timeout request.

I'm really starting to believe that what I used to think was an actual rule was, in reality, a local "best practice" (always wear black underpants, always carry a second whistle, always carry a pin in your jacket pocket) to ensure that the disqualified player was replaced in a correct, organized, and timely manner.

It wasn't a unique local practice. It was common sense application that most of us adhered to.

Sent from my SM-S926U using Tapatalk

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by sniperbbb

why do you need a rule here? We don't skip straight to getting subs before any other to dead ball business that we are doing. They're last priority.

Make report
go through dq process if needed
grant to if requested
beckon subs
resume play.

👍 What I said in my original comment.

[BillyMac]

26) B-1 fouls A-1, committing their fifth personal foul. While waiting for B-1’s replacement, A-6 and A-7 approach the table to enter the game. The official denies their entry, stating that A-6 and A-7 must wait and enter with B-1’s replacement. Was the official correct?

IAABO answer is no.

I've been researching this question and answer for two months and may have finally gotten some closure (at least from IAABO).

Here's the answer I got from my local interpreter, also the Connecticut state interpreter, and also the assistant chair of the IAABO international Rules Examination Committee.

The answer is no. All substitutes that are at the table and ready to go in may enter the game before the replacement player for B-1. However, we generally have officials ensure that the replacement player for B-1 is our primary focus. Get the replacement player checked in, as well as the substitutes for either team.

I could not find anything to back up my yes answer (other than a single 2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretation Situation 10, poorly worded and complicated by a timeout request).

And the 2003-04 NFHS Point of Emphasis clearly tells us than if a substitute other than the replacement reports to the scorer during the wait for the required substitute they may enter the game.

It appears that no substitutes until a replacement is made is not an actual rule or mechanic, but a “best practice” to ensure that the replacement was made in a proper, correct, organized, and timely manner.

In almost all cases (except after the warning horn during a time out, or between multiple free throws) we can’t deny an eligible (sat a tick, not disqualified, etc.) substitution during a dead ball stopped clock situation, even after a live ball whistle to prevent a substitute from entering when they shouldn't come in.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

BillyMac out.

[SNIPERBBB]

We arent denying a sub entry....Theyre still coming in in when theyre allowed to.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

We aren't denying a sub entry .... They're still coming in in when they're allowed to.

Whenever the official doesn't beckon, that official is denying entry (at that time).

With few (see above) exceptions (and disqualification is not one of the exceptions) we can’t deny an eligible (see above) substitution during any dead ball stopped clock situation.

3-3-1-D: If entry is at any time other than between quarters, and a substitute who is entitled and ready to enter reports to the scorer, the scorer must use a sounding device or game horn, if, or as soon as, the ball is dead and the clock is stopped.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The first thing we need to do is ask Mr. Peabody to use his Wayback Machine to take us back to when the Rules Committee changed the Rules to what is now (2024-25) NFHS R3-S3-A1c:

The Rules Change did not change the fact that a Disqualified Player must be Substituted for immediately. The Rules Committee’s intent has always (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) been to let A6, A7, and B6 to enter that game at the same time as B7 (Substitute for the Disqualified Player, B5) but has been very cavalier in how it should be done. The protocol has always been based upon the position that other Substitutes Beckoned/TO Requests Granted/FTs Attempted cannot take place until a Substitute for B5 has Reported to the Scorer.

All 2003-04 NFHS Basketball Points of Emphasis 5-H, 2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 10, and 2024-25 NFHS R3-S3-A1c NOTE (and its Editorial Change) is reminding us is the R3-S3-A1c does not apply to A6, A7, and B6 when we have B7 Substituting for the Disqualified Player, B5.

Therefore: The Game Official first beckons B7 into the Game followed by beckoning A6, A7, and B6 into the Game but the Beckoning is done in one simultaneous action. This allows the Game Officials to be consistent in how Substitutes are brought into the game while making sure that Substitutes Beckoned/TO Requests Granted/FTs Attempted cannot take place until a Substitute for B5 has Reported to the Scorer.

MTD, Sr.

EDIT (Dec. 20/Fri.(02:35pmEST), 2024): The word immediately was a not the most accurate word to use. The Rule that was adopted is to make the HC replace the Disqualified Player in a timely manner and not use the time allotted as an "uncharged" TO.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The Rules Change did not change the fact that a Disqualified Player must be Substituted for immediately ... but has been very cavalier in how it should be done. The protocol has always been based upon the position that other Substitutes Beckoned/TO Requests Granted/FTs Attempted cannot take place until a Substitute for B5 has Reported to the Scorer.

Immediately?

Use to be 30 seconds, then 20 seconds, and now 15 seconds, but never "immediately".

Agree with "TO Requests Granted" (5-8-3) and "FTs Attempted" (3-1-1).

Disagree with "other Substitutes Beckoned".

In almost all cases (except after the warning horn during a time out, or between multiple free throws (except for new 3-3-1-C-Note)) we can’t deny an eligible (sat a tick, not disqualified, etc.) substitution during a dead ball stopped clock situation, even after a live ball whistle to prevent a substitute from entering when they shouldn't come in.

3-3-1-D: If entry is at any time other than between quarters, and a substitute who is entitled and ready to enter reports to the scorer, the scorer must use a sounding device or game horn, if, or as soon as, the ball is dead and the clock is stopped.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Immediately?

Use to be 30 seconds, then 20 seconds, and now 15 seconds, but never "immediately".[/I]

It was either a state adoption or a "trial rule" for a couple of years -- we used it in IL and had no issues with it (although Ican see someone being too strict on "immediately.")

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I can see someone being too strict on "immediately."

Back in ancient times, when it was 30 seconds, I had a veteran "old school" partner charge a technical foul to the head coach the instant the final disqualification period horn sounded with no replacement at the table. My partner had had it up to his eyeballs with this coach the entire game and was just looking for a reason to T him up.