Disqualification Substitutes ...

[BillyMac]

While I just started the process of sending this question up the IAABO ladder for explanation, I have a feeling that I am tilting at windmills.

Locally, we’ve been taught, for forty-plus years, no substitutes and no timeouts until a replacement is made.

26) B-1 fouls A-1, committing their fifth personal foul. While waiting for B-1’s replacement, A-6 and A-7 approach the table to enter the game. The official denies their entry, stating that A-6 and A-7 must wait and enter with B-1’s replacement. Was the official correct?

IAABO answer is no.

Perhaps the combination of the 2003-04 NFHS Points of Emphasis and the more recent 2024-25 Editorial Change makes the no answer correct?

2003-04 NFHS Points of Emphasis
5) Substituting Player - Disqualifications
H) If a substitute from the non-offending team or a substitute for the offending team for someone other than the disqualified player reports to the scorer during the wait for the required substitute, they may enter the game.

2024-25 Editorial Change
3-3-1-C Substitution: During multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls, substitutions may be made only before the final attempt in the sequence and after the final attempt has been scored.
Note: When a player is disqualified or directed to leave the game, both teams my substitute up until it is time to put the ball in play.

Perhaps the recent 2024-25 Editorial Change Note was not only about beckoning such substitutes before the last free throw?

Perhaps my belief to not allow other substitutes to enter until the disqualified player had been replaced was not rule based, but rather based on a local best practice to ensure that the disqualified player was replaced in a correct and timely manner?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

26) B-1 fouls A-1, committing their fifth personal foul. While waiting for B-1’s replacement, A-6 and A-7 approach the table to enter the game. The official denies their entry, stating that A-6 and A-7 must wait and enter with B-1’s replacement. Is the official correct?

IAABO says no, the official was incorrect.

No need to climb up into your cold dark attic with the other old bats, just answer me this.

Is 2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretation SITUATION 10 enough of a citation to deny entry to other substitutes before the replacement the disqualified player?

2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 10: A1 fouls out of the game. The Team A coach talks to a substitute and within 15 seconds sends the substitute to the table to report in the game. A Team B player then requests a time-out. RULING: Since a time-out may not be granted until a disqualified player is replaced, the administering official should ask the substitute at the table if he/she is the replacement for A1. If so, the time-out may be granted. If not, the substitute shall remain at the table and the coach must still replace A1 within the specified timeframe before the time-out may be granted. (3-3-1, 5-8-3b, 10-6-2)

Originally Posted by BillyMac

While I just started the process of sending this question up the IAABO ladder for explanation, I have a feeling that I am tilting at windmills.

Locally, we’ve been taught, for forty-plus years, no substitutes and no timeouts until a replacement is made.

26) B-1 fouls A-1, committing their fifth personal foul. While waiting for B-1’s replacement, A-6 and A-7 approach the table to enter the game. The official denies their entry, stating that A-6 and A-7 must wait and enter with B-1’s replacement. Was the official correct?

IAABO answer is no.

Perhaps the combination of the 2003-04 NFHS Points of Emphasis and the more recent 2024-25 Editorial Change makes the no answer correct?

2003-04 NFHS Points of Emphasis
5) Substituting Player - Disqualifications
H) If a substitute from the non-offending team or a substitute for the offending team for someone other than the disqualified player reports to the scorer during the wait for the required substitute, they may enter the game.

2024-25 Editorial Change
3-3-1-C Substitution: During multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls, substitutions may be made only before the final attempt in the sequence and after the final attempt has been scored.
Note: When a player is disqualified or directed to leave the game, both teams my substitute up until it is time to put the ball in play.

Perhaps the recent 2024-25 Editorial Change Note was not only about beckoning such substitutes before the last free throw?

Perhaps my belief to not allow other substitutes to enter until the disqualified player had been replaced was not rule based, but rather based on a local best practice to ensure that the disqualified player was replaced in a correct and timely manner?

Billy:

I apologize for not responding until now.

1) For as long as I can remember the NFHS (and NCAA Men's/Women's as well) position is: Nothing can happen until the Substitute for the Disqualified Player has Reported to the Scorer.

2) Once A6 has Reported to the Scorer, all Substitutes who are waiting to Enter the Game can be Beckoned into the Game a nanosecond after A6 has been Beckoned into the Game.

3) Now any TO Requests can be Granted.

Therefore, to answer your question regarding 2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 10 is: A responding YES!

But what about:

2003-04 NFHS Basketball Point of Emphasis 5-H

and

2024-25 NFHS Basketball Editorial Change R3-S3-A1c

They are just poorly worded Footnotes (both before and after) to the 2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 10 which reminds us all of what the NFHS (and NCAA Men's/Women's) have been telling how it is to be done for decades.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. I hope that everyone and their families had a Happy Thanksgiving!

[Mike Goodwin]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

While I just started the process of sending this question up the IAABO ladder for explanation, I have a feeling that I am tilting at windmills.

Locally, we’ve been taught, for forty-plus years, no substitutes and no timeouts until a replacement is made.

26) B-1 fouls A-1, committing their fifth personal foul. While waiting for B-1’s replacement, A-6 and A-7 approach the table to enter the game. The official denies their entry, stating that A-6 and A-7 must wait and enter with B-1’s replacement. Was the official correct?

IAABO answer is no.

Perhaps my belief to not allow other substitutes to enter until the disqualified player had been replaced was not rule based, but rather based on a local best practice to ensure that the disqualified player was replaced in a correct and timely manner?

BillyMac, what's the downside, if any, to allowing A6 & A7 into the game after informing the Team B HC that B1 is disqualified? I'm not seeing any. Team A still can't request a time-out until after B1 is replaced but opponent(s) entering? It doesn't seem to be an issue.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

BillyMac, what's the downside, if any, to allowing A6 & A7 into the game after informing the Team B HC that B1 is disqualified? I'm not seeing any. Team A still can't request a time-out until after B1 is replaced but opponent(s) entering? It doesn't seem to be an issue.

It appears that Mike Goodwin agrees with the IAABO answer, let A6 and A7 in before the disqualified player is replaced.

Despite what my friend Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. posted, I'm starting to agree with Mike Goodwin (and IAABO).

Was there ever a NFHS rule that said no substitutes until a replacement is made?

Can anybody cite the rule (or mechanic)?

Or was it just a local "best practice" to ensure that the disqualified player was replaced in a correct and timely manner?

If it was a rule, when did it change?

If it was never a rule, was the 2003-04 NFHS Points of Emphasis due to some confusion about the disqualification process?

And finally, the straw I've been grasping at for several weeks, why does 2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rule Interpretations Situation 10 instruct us that "the substitute shall remain at the table" if indeed there is no such rule to deny substitutes entry before the disqualified player is replaced?

I'm desperate for some closure here.

And it's gone way beyond me getting the exam question right or wrong, I really want to know the rule.

[BillyMac]

This just showed up on the IAABO website today.





Was there ever a NFHS rule that said no substitutes until a replacement is made?

If so, did that change, and if there was a change, when?

[bob jenkins]

No one disputed what's in the slides. Still doesn't answer the test question.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

No one disputed what's in the slides. Still doesn't answer the test question.

Agree that the wording in NFHS 2024-25 Editorial Rule Change 3-3-1-C-Note is quite poor.

NFHS 2024-25 Editorial Rule Change 3-3-1-C-Note: When a player is disqualified or directed to leave the game, both teams my substitute up until it is time to put the ball in play.

Explanation: If any player has been directed to leave the game, an exception permits substitutes from both teams who have legally reported to the scorer to enter the game before the last free throw ... All substitutes meeting this exception may enter the game until the official has beckoned the required sub onto the floor. At that time, any additional substitutes reporting to the table must wait until the first of two or the second of three free throws to enter the game.

But so is 2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretation Situation 10 due to the added complexity of a timeout.

2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
Situation 10: A1 fouls out of the game. The Team A coach talks to a substitute and within 15 seconds sends the substitute to the table to report in the game. A Team B player then requests a time-out. RULING: Since a time-out may not be granted until a disqualified player is replaced, the administering official should ask the substitute at the table if he/she is the replacement for A1. If so, the time-out may be granted. If not, the substitute shall remain at the table and the coach must still replace A1 within the specified timeframe before the time-out may be granted. (3-3-1, 5-8-3b, 10-6-2)

On the other hand, the 2003-04 NFHS Points of Emphasis is very clearly written, simple, and straightforward.

2003-04 NFHS Points of Emphasis
5) Substituting Player - Disqualifications
H) If a substitute from the non-offending team or a substitute for the offending team for someone other than the disqualified player reports to the scorer during the wait for the required substitute, they may enter the game.

So again I ask: Was there ever a NFHS rule that said no substitutes until a replacement is made? If so, did that change, and if there was a change, when?

Can somebody actually cite the original rule (or mechanic) that said no substitutes until a replacement is made?

We do have such a clear, simple, and straightforward rule to deny a timeout request until a replacement is made.

Rule 5 - Section 8 Time-Out, Stopping Play
Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, must be stopped when an official:
Art.. 3 . . . Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:
b. The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is available and required.

Why can't we pinpoint such a clear, simple, and straightforward rule that denies substitutes until a replacement is made?

[SNIPERBBB]

Why do you need a rule here? We don't skip straight to getting subs before any other to dead ball business that we are doing. They're last priority.

Make report
Go through DQ process if needed
Grant TO if requested
Beckon Subs
Resume Play.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The first thing we need to do is ask Mr. Peabody to use his Wayback Machine to take us back to when the Rules Committee changed the Rules to what is now (2024-25) NFHS R3-S3-A1c:

The Rules Change did not change the fact that a Disqualified Player must be Substituted for immediately. The Rules Committee’s intent has always (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) been to let A6, A7, and B6 to enter that game at the same time as B7 (Substitute for the Disqualified Player, B5) but has been very cavalier in how it should be done. The protocol has always been based upon the position that other Substitutes Beckoned/TO Requests Granted/FTs Attempted cannot take place until a Substitute for B5 has Reported to the Scorer.

All 2003-04 NFHS Basketball Points of Emphasis 5-H, 2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 10, and 2024-25 NFHS R3-S3-A1c NOTE (and its Editorial Change) is reminding us is the R3-S3-A1c does not apply to A6, A7, and B6 when we have B7 Substituting for the Disqualified Player, B5.

Therefore: The Game Official first beckons B7 into the Game followed by beckoning A6, A7, and B6 into the Game but the Beckoning is done in one simultaneous action. This allows the Game Officials to be consistent in how Substitutes are brought into the game while making sure that Substitutes Beckoned/TO Requests Granted/FTs Attempted cannot take place until a Substitute for B5 has Reported to the Scorer.

MTD, Sr.

EDIT (Dec. 20/Fri.(02:35pmEST), 2024): The word immediately was a not the most accurate word to use. The Rule that was adopted is to make the HC replace the Disqualified Player in a timely manner and not use the time allotted as an "uncharged" TO.