Disqualification Substitutes ...

[BillyMac]

This situation was discussed on the Forum about a month ago.

It came up again last night at an IAABO Refresher Exam study group.

About a dozen and a half guys, including a few good "rules guys", couldn't come up with a consensus answer.

26) B-1 fouls A-1, committing their fifth personal foul. While waiting for B-1’s replacement, A-6 and A-7 approach the table to enter the game. The official denies their entry, stating that A-6 and A-7 must wait and enter with B-1’s replacement. Was the official correct?

IAABO answer is "No".

Reference cited for this question is 3-3-1-C.

3-3-1-C Substitution: During multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls, substitutions may be made only before the final attempt in the sequence and after the final attempt has been scored.
Note: When a player is disqualified or directed to leave the game, both teams my substitute up until it is time to put the ball in play.

2003-04 NFHS Points of Emphasis
5) Substituting Player - Disqualifications
H) If a substitute from the non-offending team or a substitute for the offending team for someone other than the disqualified player reports to the scorer during the wait for the required substitute, they may enter the game. (3-3-1-D)

2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 10: A1 fouls out of the game. The Team A coach talks to a substitute and within 15 seconds sends the substitute to the table to report in the game. A Team B player then requests a time-out. RULING: Since a time-out may not be granted until a disqualified player is replaced, the administering official should ask the substitute at the table if he/she is the replacement for A1. If so, the time-out may be granted. If not, the substitute shall remain at the table and the coach must still replace A1 within the specified timeframe before the time-out may be granted. (3-3-1, 5-8-3b, 10-6-2)

Is there a NFHS rule that tells the reporting official not to allow the substitutes to enter before the head coach replaces the disqualified player?

[Raymond]

The intent of the rule is for all other action to cease until the substitution has been made.

The word "also" in 3-3-1 C is significant.

Not allowing teammates to enter before the disqualified player is subbed out is also significant.



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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

26) B-1 fouls A-1, committing their fifth personal foul. While waiting for B-1’s replacement, A-6 and A-7 approach the table to enter the game. The official denies their entry, stating that A-6 and A-7 must wait and enter with B-1’s replacement. Was the official correct?

IAABO answer is "No".

Does this have any impact on the interpretation?

NFHS 2024-25 Editorial Rule Change:
3-3-1-C-Note: When a player is disqualified or directed to leave the game, both teams my substitute up until it is time to put the ball in play.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

The word "also" in 3-3-1 C is significant.

"Also" is no longer in the rule:

3-3-1-C Substitution: During multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls, substitutions may be made only before the final attempt in the sequence and after the final attempt has been scored. Note: When a player is disqualified or directed to leave the game, both teams my substitute up until it is time to put the ball in play.

[BillyMac]

After much research, here's what I came up with regarding this topic (most is repeated from above).

I can't seem to come up with a clear answer.

26) B-1 fouls A-1, committing their fifth personal foul. While waiting for B-1’s replacement, A-6 and A-7 approach the table to enter the game. The official denies their entry, stating that A-6 and A-7 must wait and enter with B-1’s replacement. Is the official correct?

Locally, we’ve been taught, for forty-plus years, no substitutes and no timeouts until a replacement is made.

IAABO answer No.

2003-04 NFHS Points of Emphasis
5) Substituting Player - Disqualifications
H) If a substitute from the non-offending team or a substitute for the offending team for someone other than the disqualified player reports to the scorer during the wait for the required substitute, they may enter the game. (3-3-1-D)

2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 10: A1 fouls out of the game. The Team A coach talks to a substitute and within 15 seconds sends the substitute to the table to report in the game. A Team B player then requests a time-out. RULING: Since a time-out may not be granted until a disqualified player is replaced, the administering official should ask the substitute at the table if he/she is the replacement for A1. If so, the time-out may be granted. If not, the substitute shall remain at the table and the coach must still replace A1 within the specified timeframe before the time-out may be granted. (3-3-1, 5-8-3b, 10-6-2)

We’ve got a 2003-04 NFHS Points of Emphasis that says that if a substitute (from either or both teams) for someone other than the disqualified player reports to the scorer during the wait for the required substitute, they may enter the game.

Conversely, we’ve got a more recent 2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretation that appears to say that the substitute shall remain at the table until the disqualified player has been replaced.

5-8-3-B Time-Out, Stopping Play: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, must be stopped when an official: Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when: The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is available and required.

Here’s a recent editorial change that may, or may not, impact (I say no) the Refresher Exam question:

NFHS 2024-25 Editorial Rule Change:
3-3-1-C-Note: When a player is disqualified or directed to leave the game, both teams my substitute up until it is time to put the ball in play.

Explanation: If any player has been directed to leave the game, an exception permits substitutes from both teams who have legally reported to the scorer to enter the game before the last free throw ... All substitutes meeting this exception may enter the game until the official has beckoned the required sub onto the floor. At that time, any additional substitutes reporting to the table must wait until the first of two or the second of three free throws to enter the game.

My opinion, the new editorial change simply tells us that these “early” reporting substitutes don’t have to wait until the "usual" time interval before the last free throw, but may come in “early” with the required substitute.

Does anybody have better citations for Yes or No?

[BillyMac]

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 10: A1 fouls out of the game. The Team A coach talks to a substitute and within 15 seconds sends the substitute to the table to report in the game. A Team B player then requests a time-out. RULING: Since a time-out may not be granted until a disqualified player is replaced, the administering official should ask the substitute at the table if he/she is the replacement for A1. If so, the time-out may be granted. If not, the substitute shall remain at the table and the coach must still replace A1 within the specified timeframe before the time-out may be granted. (3-3-1, 5-8-3b, 10-6-2)

Is this (above) the one and only citation we have to deny other substitutes entry until the disqualified player has been substituted for?

Was there a rule change after the Point of Emphasis in 2003-04 to support this 2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretation?

Too bad the 2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretation deals with both substitutes and a timeout request.

It would have been more "cut and dry" with just the substitution with no the timeout request to "gum up the works".

I guess that we got two interpretations for the price of one?

The timeout request is an easy interpretation based on a very clear rule.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

5-8-3-B Time-Out, Stopping Play: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, must be stopped when an official: Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when: The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is available and required.

What's the rule basis for the substitution part of the interpretation?

Is the single 2020-21 interpretation enough "ammunition" to challenge my local (and state) interpreter?

I could really use some closure here.

It's the only item from the IAABO Refresher Exam that continues to "bug me".

While this started out about me getting the exam question correct, I've now moved on to where I really want to know the true rule.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

While I am late in joining the discussion I have been following it. That said, ...

When the NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's Committees adopted the Timing Period Rule a couple of decades ago I can say with great certainty (without climbing into the attic to go through file boxes) that the protocol for the Situation being discussed was: Beckon A6 and A7 with B6 but not until after B6 had reported to the Scorer. The Rationale was that nothing can happen until B6 has Reported to the Scorer.

The most important thing is:* When a Player for whom a Substitute is required:* a) Disqualified: b) Injured/Sick; c) Uniform Infraction/Jewelry; or d) Blood, the HC has a defined Time Period in which to have a Substitute report to the Scorer and per Rule, nothing else can happen until the Substitute has Reported to the Scorer.* And that Protocol has been in place*for as long as when the Rule was adopted that put a Time Period for Replacing the Player with a Substitute.

I would then beckon B6 into the Game followed by quickly beckoning A6 and A7 into the Game, but in actuality, I was beckoning all of them (B6, A6, and A7) into the Game at the same time.

The discussion really is about semantics. Yes, the Rule could be better worded but no rule is being broken by waiting until B6 has reported to the Scorer and then all of the Substitutes are brought into the game at the same time.

MTD, Sr.