Listing Substitutes

[OCASA]

Okay .. ASA Rule Book .. Says if the player is on your roster you can add subs anytime.. as long as they are listed on your roster.

What do the other rule books says?

[wadeintothem]

NFHS is same as ASA
NCAA - they must be listed.


As a side discussion - A few coaches are abusing this. The intent is too allow a player to show up late and still be able to play. What some coaches are doing is not listing subs until they use them in the game.

I dont like that too much as it causes an unnecessary beef I gotta deal with just so he can play hokey pokey with his line up.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

As a side discussion - A few coaches are abusing this. The intent is too allow a player to show up late and still be able to play. What some coaches are doing is not listing subs until they use them in the game.

I dont like that too much as it causes an unnecessary beef I gotta deal with just so he can play hokey pokey with his line up.

I don't care, it isn't my problem. If the other coach wants to protest eligibility, check ID, get a signature and move on. Even better if tournament and there is a TD available to handle it.

[OCASA]

For the fall league, (I am the League Manager), I asked that managers to list their whole roster from now on. But the &*%hole making the issue gets ranting on about "International Rules" and "NSA", I'm like .. who gives a c*$%p play ball. But .. I was curious ..........

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by OCASA

For the fall league, (I am the League Manager), I asked that managers to list their whole roster from now on. But the &*%hole making the issue gets ranting on about "International Rules" and "NSA", I'm like .. who gives a c*$%p play ball. But .. I was curious ..........

From ISF rules:

Sec. 64. LINE-UP

AND LINE-UP CARD.

A line-up (batting order) is the list of players who are currently involved playing offensive and defensive positions in the game,

including the DP and FLEX PLAYER (FP ONLY) and EP (SP ONLY), is being used. The line-up card will contain
1. The last name, first name, position and uniform number of the starting players in the batting order (line-up), and
2. The last name, first name and uniform number of available substitutes, and
3. The last name and first name of the manager.
NOTE: If an incorrect uniform number is listed on the line-up card, it may be corrected and the game continued with no penalty. If a player wearing an incorrect number violates any rule, the violation has precedence and must be enforced. If the player remains in the game following the violation, then correct the number and continue to play.

Sec. 2. LINE-UP CARDS AND ROSTERS.

a. Official line-up cards are to be completed and submitted to the Official Scorer, or umpire, at the start of each game. The plate umpire retains the card for the duration of the game.
1. A player’s name shall not be on the starting line-up, unless the player is present in the team area and in uniform.
2. All available substitutes should be listed in the designated place, by their last name, first name and uniform number.
3. Eligible roster members may be added to the available substitute list at any time during the game.
4. The name of the head coach/manager must be listed on the line-up card.

b. Male rosters shall include only male players and female rosters shall include only female players.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by OCASA

Okay .. ASA Rule Book .. Says if the player is on your roster you can add subs anytime.. as long as they are listed on your roster.

What do the other rule books says?

Here's what my rulebook says.

ASA 10.1 "They (the umpires) have the power to order a player, coach, captain or managerto carry out or omit any act, which in their judgment, is necessary to give force and effect to any or all these rules, and to impose penalties as herein described."

Coach "I don't have to list my subs, I can add them when I choose."

Plate Umpire "Coach, I have the authority in the rulebook to direct you to list those currently here right now. I am telling you to do that, now. If you refuse, I also have the authority to determine your refusal is intended to be both an unsportsmanlike act, and as a direct refusal to honor my valid and legal request; if you insist on your position, now that I have stated this request as a requirement, I must, according to the rules you want to rely on, eject you for both stated reasons. So, I will give you enough time to list them, right now; failing that, please name the replacement head coach, who will also be requested, and therefore required, to list those subs currently present."

Say that once or twice; I bet you get subs listed anytime they see you on the field after that.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Say that once or twice; I bet you get subs listed anytime they see you on the field after that.

Say that once or twice and I'll be too winded to start the game on time.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Say that once or twice and I'll be too winded to start the game on time.

Maybe a bit wordy, maybe a shorter way to say it; but I'm getting the subs listed and using the rules to do it.

[Dakota]

OK, but why do we (umpires) care if the subs are listed on the lineup card? I get the little bit of time to write the number down when the sub enters, but is that worth a big to-do with the coach?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

OK, but why do we (umpires) care if the subs are listed on the lineup card? I get the little bit of time to write the number down when the sub enters, but is that worth a big to-do with the coach?

Well, you sell it to the coach. If all the information is correct, s/he doesn't need to come out and explain Billy Bob is in for JoeWilly at 1b and JoeWilly is....yada, yada, yada. IOW, it makes their life and maintaining a correct line-up easier for THEM.

Most JO coaches understand it makes their life easier.

Coach A: "Blue, 24 for 10"
Blue: "That was 24 for 10, right Coach?"
Blue: "Coach B, 24 for 10".
Coach B: "Thanks, Blue"

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Well, you sell it to the coach. If all the information is correct, s/he doesn't need to come out and explain Billy Bob is in for JoeWilly at 1b and JoeWilly is....yada, yada, yada. IOW, it makes their life and maintaining a correct line-up easier for THEM.

Most JO coaches understand it makes their life easier.

Coach A: "Blue, 24 for 10"
Blue: "That was 24 for 10, right Coach?"
Blue: "Coach B, 24 for 10".
Coach B: "Thanks, Blue"

Ah!!!

But you must not be aware of the super secret 14 y/o stud off the bench ploy!

Actually, the time it happened, I think he read a book for his first time and figured that out and wanted to see if anyone else knew his little rule.

idiot.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Ah!!!

But you must not be aware of the super secret 14 y/o stud off the bench ploy!

Actually, the time it happened, I think he read a book for his first time and figured that out and wanted to see if anyone else knew his little rule.

idiot.

That's when you hope they are on the clock and this coach is losing. Then you just take your time, repeat every word s/he says....twice.... meander over to the opposing team, take your time giving them the change, towel off and get a drink of water, meander back to the plate, turn to Coach Idiot and say, "by the way coach, the clock did not stop for that change."

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

NFHS is same as ASA
NCAA - they must be listed.


As a side discussion - A few coaches are abusing this. The intent is too allow a player to show up late and still be able to play. What some coaches are doing is not listing subs until they use them in the game.

I dont like that too much as it causes an unnecessary beef I gotta deal with just so he can play hokey pokey with his line up.

Seems to me you can nip this in the bud at pregame just like any other obvious problem with the line up card i.e. only first names listed or no jersey numbers or postions listed. I am always going to make a quick count of the players in uniform on both sides just to make sure we have the legal number to start the game. If I count 14 players and a coach hands me a line up card with no subs on it, I will hand it back.

"Coach can you list your subs on here for me please; we can wait a minute for you."

Said with a smile. I have never had a problem with this, at this point in the game most coaches are eager to please.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Well, you sell it to the coach. If all the information is correct, s/he doesn't need to come out and explain Billy Bob is in for JoeWilly at 1b and JoeWilly is....yada, yada, yada. IOW, it makes their life and maintaining a correct line-up easier for THEM.

Most JO coaches understand it makes their life easier.

Coach A: "Blue, 24 for 10"
Blue: "That was 24 for 10, right Coach?"
Blue: "Coach B, 24 for 10".
Coach B: "Thanks, Blue"

While I agree with this, when the coach gives me the subs by number I like to read it back to them with names as I put it on my lineup card.

Coach A: "Blue I have 24 for 10"
Blue. : "OK that was 24 Jones for 10 Smith"
Coach A: "No No I am putting Johnson in. Oh, yeah she has on number 23 today."

I find at least a couple of wrong jersey numbers listed every season this way and verifying at the time of sub I save a time consuming problem later when I have to unravel a potential illegal sub that is really just a legal line up card correction. Done at the time of the sub it is easy, later you may have to have a discussion with the "offended" coach.