Ten Second Free Throw Violation ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... deem it to be unsportsmanlike conduct.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There is nothing unsporting about counting out loud while guarding an opponent ... I’m of the opinion that it could only be penalized if it is deemed an attempt to influence the official.

I agree with both Camron Rust and Nevadaref.

Attempting to influence an official’s decision is, by definition, also an unsporting act.

I'm actually extrapolating, since it's unsporting for bench personnel, it's probably also unsporting for a player, based on "not limited to acts or conduct ...".

Good for goose. Good for gander.

10-5-B Bench personnel, including the head coach, must not commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as: Attempting to influence an official’s decision.

10-4: A player must not: Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as …

The debate between Camron Rust and Nevadaref is a fine distinction of semantics.

If the official believes that the "counter" is trying to influence the official, it's definitely unsporting; but if the official believes that the "counter" is trying to influence the opponent, it's probably not unsporting.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

“Ball, ball, ball” or “Dead, dead, dead.”

In my personal opinion, there's no place for this (Nevadaref quote) in basketball, but as an experienced basketball official, I'm not touching this with a thirty-nine-and-a-half foot pole.

Maybe in my very last game ever, just to take a stand and die on that hill.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In my personal opinion, there's no place for this in basketball, but as an experienced basketball official, I'm not touching this with a thirty-nine-and-a-half foot pole. Maybe in my very last game ever, just to take a stand and die on that hill.

And, at the risk of being labeled a sexist, it's mostly girls, most guys wouldn't be caught dead yelling, “Ball, ball, ball”, or “Dead, dead, dead.”

Just sayin'.

[Robert Goodman]

I don't get it...what's shady in basketball about "ball, ball, ball" or "dead, dead, dead"? "Ball" could be a player on offense calling for the ball, or on defense indi cating either that s/he's covering ball or that they need someone else to cover ball. "Dead" could mean any number of things to a particular team.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I don't get it...what's shady in basketball about "ball, ball, ball" or "dead, dead, dead"? "Ball" could be a player on offense calling for the ball, or on defense indi cating either that s/he's covering ball or that they need someone else to cover ball. "Dead" could mean any number of things to a particular team.

Nothing. And it's completely different from anything a referee would say (well, in that situation) -- but counting is something some officials do (even if they shouldn't) -- that's part of how I make a decision.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I don't get it...what's shady in basketball about "ball, ball, ball" or "dead, dead, dead"? "Ball" could be a player on offense calling for the ball, or on defense indicating either that s/he's covering ball or that they need someone else to cover ball. "Dead" could mean any number of things to a particular team.

It's not what they say, but how they say it, and how they keep repeating it over and over, trying to get under their opponent's skin, trying to panic their opponent.

Maybe it's alright in some sports, but I personally don't believe that yelling in an opponent's face in an irritating manner when one is only inches away is good sportsmanship in a basketball game.

I would never teach, or allow, the middle school kids I coached to do it.

Is it taunting? Probably not (but it could be). Is is baiting? Probably not (but it could be).

Maybe it isn't unsporting, but it certainly doesn't demonstrate good sportsmanship.

Is this what Dr. Naismith envisioned? What would Jesus do (Jesus Shuttlesworth, Big State University basketball player)?

Like I said, I ain't a "guardian of the game" hero, and as an experienced official I'm not addressing this activity with a thirty-nine-and-a-half foot pole.

But I should.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Is it taunting? Probably not (but it could be). Is is baiting? Probably not (but it could be).

4-18: Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as: An attempt to strike, punch or kick by using a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made. An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act that causes a person to retaliate by fighting.

Ball handler A1 picks up her dribble and is unable to immediately find a teammate to pass to. Defender B1 gets inches away from A1 and yells "Dead. Dead. Dead" (repeating it over and over) directly into A1's face in an extremely loud, irritating, annoying, and obnoxious manner, attempting to get under A1's skin, and trying to panic A1. A1 punches B1.

Who gets tossed? Just A1, or both A1 and B1?

I'm not saying that I know the right answer, or that I believe that both should be tossed, but it's certainly worth thinking about.

Just sayin'.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Who gets tossed? Just A1, or both A1 and B1?

This was not a rhetorical question. I am actually interested in the thoughts and opinions of Forum members. It doesn't have to be a debate, just thoughts and opinions.

[Raymond]

I would only eject a non-violent fight participant if they did something unsporting which instigated the fight. I have not seen anything listed in this thread that would fit that criteria.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I would only eject a non-violent fight participant if they did something unsporting which instigated the fight. I have not seen anything listed in this thread that would fit that criteria.

... An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act that causes a person to retaliate by fighting.

Agree. That was the part of the rule that I keyed on, and I would hopefully have the presence of mind to remember that part of the rule, but it the heat of the moment ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree. That was the part of the rule that I keyed on, and I would hopefully have the presence of mind to remember that part of the rule, but it the heat of the moment ...

... An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act that causes a person to retaliate by fighting.

However. The NFHS defines and gives examples of unsporting acts as baiting and/or taunting (among other acts).

Bait: To deliberately annoy or taut someone.

Taunt: A remark made in order to anger, wound, or provoke someone.

10-4-6-C: A player must not: Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as: Baiting or taunting an opponent.

This action may not reach the level of taunting, but it certainly can be considered baiting (annoying), and thus, unsporting.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

However. The NFHS defines and gives examples of unsporting acts as baiting and/or taunting (among other acts). This action may not reach the level of taunting, but it certainly can be considered baiting (annoying), and thus, unsporting.

I probably should have inserted a few question marks in my post. I'm not looking to debate, nor do I have an answer, nor have I taken a side, I'm just acting as the Devil's advocate.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I probably should have inserted a few question marks in my post. I'm not looking to debate, nor do I have an answer, nor have I taken a side, I'm just acting as the Devil's advocate.

Maybe others agree with my assessment that nothing that has been listed rises to the level of unsporting conduct?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Maybe others agree with my assessment that nothing that has been listed rises to the level of unsporting conduct?

And that group might include me.

Probably is a spectrum issue rather than a binary black/white issue.

Even if it is a spectrum issue, the decision has to be binary, unsporting, or not unsporting.

Note that I said "not unsporting" because I still don't believe that such activity deserves any sportsmanship (sporting) award.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Bait: To deliberately annoy or taut someone. Taunt: A remark made in order to anger, wound, or provoke someone.

Provoke: Stimulate or give rise to a reaction or emotion, typically a strong or unwelcome one, in someone.

Another point that may move the needle a little, but probably not far enough.

NFHS definitions are often not the same as Funk and Wagnalls definitions.

[Raymond]

We are aware of the definitions of different words.

We have all worked games where players have yelled "Ball, ball, ball!" or "Dead, dead, dead!"

You are not breaking new ground here. And to diffuse your usual "brand new officials" reason for continuing a dying conversation, hopefully they learn whether or not to address this situation at their local level, and not from someone on the internet who has an obviously minority opinion.