Ten Second Free Throw Violation ...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Raymond

We are aware of the definitions of different words.

We have all worked games where players have yelled "Ball, ball, ball!" or "Dead, dead, dead!"

You are not breaking new ground here. And to diffuse your usual "brand new officials" reason for continuing a dying conversation, hopefully they learn whether or not to address this situation at their local level, and not from someone on the internet who has an obviously minority opinion.

These are often times local standards that if called could get you fired or praised by different people. I think people should follow those first. I can say where I live if you call a T for some of these things suggested, you would get looked at as being rather technical. Just tell the players or teams to knock it off in some of those cases and move on. We make this stuff so complicated sometimes.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

... who has an obviously minority opinion.

My rulebook based, and experience based opinion actually aligns with such activity not usually being deemed unsporting and thus not deserving of being tossed as provoking a fight.

Any opinion that finds this activity unsporting has to rely on extrapolation and dictionary definitions of rulebook definitions, certainly not a great way to interpret rules.

That being said, I've seen some very loud, obnoxious, over the top "Dead. Dead. Dead ..." activity over forty years that not only tells teammates that the ball handler no longer has her dribble but that also has the purpose of irritating, annoying, and panicking the ball handler.

I've thought to myself "knucklehead" for forty years and let it go because, not only have I never observed it being addressed by any of my colleagues, but also because it never provoked a response.

But eventually, if and when a response, physical, or oral, is provoked for the first time in my career, I may have to change my "rulebook" interpretation of such activity, and rely on my "gut" experience for the good of that game, that night, with those players.

If this activity happens in one of my games to the greatest extreme that I've ever observed it in forty years, and the ball handler immediately punches the defender, I can see myself, in the heat of the moment, especially in an already chippy game, tossing both players, and after, when the smoke clears (and I expect that there will be lots of smoke), being able to defend my call to my assigner along the lines of unsporting taunting, or baiting, and not losing any sleep over my call that night.

My heat of the moment call of this very extreme, very rare, once in a thousand-plus game event may not be viewed favorably by anybody, on the Forum, or anywhere else, but it would definitely be one of those "had to be there" calls.

Even the many who totally disagree with me, that say that I have crossed some "guardian of the game" line, can't deny that such extreme activity, while maybe not unsporting, can certainly never be considered sporting.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We make this stuff so complicated sometimes.

I disagree on the use of the word "we." It's only one person.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Just tell the players or teams to knock it off in some of those cases and move on.

Great advice from a successful, experienced official. Thanks JRutledge.

"Please don't make me decide it that is unsporting taunting, or baiting. Please just stop doing it."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I disagree on the use of the word "we." It's only one person.

It's the "royal we".

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I disagree on the use of the word "we." It's only one person.

You are right it is "one person" here. But there are people like him making this complicated and trying to find ways to call stuff that is not either the standard or acceptable by most experienced officials. I have to talk them off the ledge ever summer with camps trying to control things that really most of us never care about. But your point is well taken.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Great advice from a successful, experienced official. Thanks JRutledge.

"Please don't make me decide it that is taunting, or baiting. Please just stop doing it".

That is not what I said. Some of these situations would not even raise an eyebrow, but you mentioned some things that would be normally apart of the game. Yelling "Ball, ball, ball" is not something I would even consider on any level as taunting or baiting. So many ways players communicate with players or teammates that if that is a problem, then other things would be an issue to if they were said out loud. It is different when counting on the bench certain things, because that could raise to another level of either taunting or trying to influence a call. Since there is not really a direct example used by the rules makers as to when these situations take place, if you think it is on the edge, tell them about it. Then if they refuse you have some tools in the toolbox. I never said ignore anything, but funny that I know I cannot hear everything and can misinterpret many actions, so in order to stop things you address it and usually it stops. Kind of like when players yell "And 1" after making a basket. Is that really taunting? And where does it say in the rulebook that must be a technical?

The best example I can give is when players started pulling out their jersey either towards the crowd or opponents, my state directly said that was OK if the players did that to their fans. If they did it towards opponents and opposing fans, then you could and should take action. But not if they run to or look towards their teammates and fans to pull out their school name or nickname on their jersey. Similar to the NCAA in football addressing very specific actions that would be considered unsporting acts before or after scoring a touchdown. Things, like throwing the ball in the air or using a fraternity sign, or spiking the ball, were specifically mentioned by their rules people to address these issues. Basketball often has nothing specifically mentioned and it is left to interpretation or league standard to address those situations. And still, the public thinks officials are being "technical" (pun intended) when addressing these issues.

But most of us know this fact. This seems to be a struggle for you and usually, we teach our younger officials what not to do or it might hurt them.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... call stuff that is not either the standard or acceptable by most experienced officials ...that really most of us never care about.

True, but every once great while something bizarre, really out of the ordinary happens that even very experienced officials have never ever dealt with before, forcing one to immediately "care".

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

True, but every once great while something bizarre, really out of the ordinary happens that even very experienced officials have never ever dealt with before, forcing one to immediately "care".

And forcing us to read a whole bunch of posts from you because you won't let the conversation die a natural death. We obviously don't think or care about this situation as much as you do. Can't you respect that?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

True, but every once great while something bizarre, really out of the ordinary happens that even very experienced officials have never ever dealt with before, forcing one to immediately "care".

I officiate a lot of basketball at many levels, funny this is not something people are that concerned with hardly at all. Even newer officials do not do something they have not usually seen or been told to do. This is about you (as usual).

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

We obviously don't think or care about this situation as much as you do. Can't you respect that?

Then why three replies about the "punch" (replies that I mostly agree with)?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... this is not something people are that concerned with hardly at all.

Of course not, because it will probably never happen.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There is nothing unsporting about counting out loud while guarding an opponent. It’s the same as hollering, “Ball, ball, ball” or “Dead, dead, dead.”

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Ball handler A1 picks up her dribble and is unable to immediately find a teammate to pass to. Defender B1 gets inches away from A1 and yells "Dead. Dead. Dead" (repeating it over and over) directly into A1's face in an extremely loud, irritating, annoying, and obnoxious manner, attempting to get under A1's skin, and trying to panic A1. A1 punches B1. Who gets tossed? Just A1, or both A1 and B1? I'm not saying that I know the right answer, or that I believe that both should be tossed, but it's certainly worth thinking about.Just sayin'.

It was a hypothetical situation (with the punch) from the get go, intended to spark continued discussion about possible unsporting behavior, a change-up from the original discussion about possible unsporting "counting", perhaps even back tracking a little to whether "Dead. Dead. Dead ..." should always be considered "not unsporting".

And even though it was a hypothetical situation, I could (under extreme conditions) see this happen in a game that's already been chippy, that already has officials' antennae up.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

True, but every once great while something bizarre, really out of the ordinary happens that even very experienced officials have never ever dealt with before, forcing one to immediately "care".

This past season I had a once in a career whistle on a foul by a defender on a start the third period division line throwin before I handed the ball to the inbounder. Defender had his back to me and thought that the inbounder had the ball. His foul was not your typical intentional foul, just over aggressive deny defense.

Took me a few seconds as I walked to the reporting area to figure it out, and to then explain my technical foul (calling it intentional dead ball contact) call to the coach. Not my finest hour. Should have talked to my partner, who later (too late) told me that I should of just called an inadvertent whistle and told the kid to cut it out.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Just tell the players or teams to knock it off in some of those cases and move on.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Then why three replies about the "punch" (replies that I mostly agree with)?

...

You're right. I need to go back to my policy of not looking at a thread if you are the last person to post.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Just sayin'.

Just Sayin’: A phrase used to assert "I hold the stated belief, but I don't have an imperative to act on that belief." Similarly, it may indicate a desire to hold and express the belief, but not to want to argue for or defend that belief. This could be because the belief is phenomenologically obvious, because the belief may be based in faith, or because the argument may be too complex or boring to have. Depending on the context, "Just sayin'" may indicate that the speaker sees the belief as possibly wrong or as so obvious its legitimacy can't be questioned.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm just acting as the Devil's advocate.

Devil's advocate: A person who champions the less accepted cause for the sake of argument. Someone who pretends, in an argument or discussion, to be against an idea or plan that a lot of people support, in order to make people discuss and consider it in more detail.