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Old Sat Jan 09, 2021, 12:12pm
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Fun With A Pivot Foot ...

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Old Sat Jan 09, 2021, 12:18pm
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"gather" isn't completed until LF is on the floor (not that this part really matters) and RF is off the floor. Legal play.
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Old Sat Jan 09, 2021, 12:49pm
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Slow Motion Replay ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
"gather" isn't completed until LF is on the floor (not that this part really matters) and RF is off the floor. Legal play.
Agree. Tough call. Too bad we don't have slow motion replay in our brains.

If we're not sure it's a travel, it's not a travel.
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Old Sat Jan 09, 2021, 01:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
"gather" isn't completed until LF is on the floor (not that this part really matters) and RF is off the floor. Legal play.
I think the ball is at rest in the hand (dribble ended and ball being held) with the right foot still on the floor and before the left foot is.

If I would call a carry if the player put the ball back down, they have caught the ball and the pivot foot is established.
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Old Sat Jan 09, 2021, 01:37pm
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Speedy Delivery Bang-Bang Play ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I think the ball is at rest in the hand ...
Noticed that myself, gave some thought to a carry, and decided no.

There's a lot going on in this "speedy delivery" bang-bang play (watch the hands, watch the feet, watch the ball) which explains why officiating basketball is so difficult and why we get paid the big bucks.

Anybody have any problem with White #11 (the kid who scored) clapping his hands in the face of Gold #3 (whom he beat) after the made basket?

Maybe he wasn't taunting, maybe he was just psyched up, but I may have had a word with him.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Jan 10, 2021 at 12:33pm.
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Old Sat Jan 09, 2021, 04:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Noticed that myself, gave some thought to a carry, and decided no.
...
Why would you consider a carry on this play? There was no subsequent dribble.



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Old Sat Jan 09, 2021, 04:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
....

Anybody have any problem with White #11 (the kid who scored) clapping his hands in the face of Gold #3 (whom he beat) after the made basket?

Maybe he wasn't taunting, maybe he was just psyched up, but I may have had a word with him.
He did not clap in his opponent's face. He bent over prior to clapping so that the clap was at his opponent's midsection. He wasn't even making eye contact with his opponent.

As far as the travel or no-travel, I have the player still trying to gain full control of the ball after ending his dribble. I see a bobble while his right foot is down, then full control when it's left foot is down.



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Last edited by Raymond; Sat Jan 09, 2021 at 04:47pm.
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Old Sat Jan 09, 2021, 07:31pm
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Palming, Carrying ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Why would you consider a carry on this play? There was no subsequent dribble.
There doesn't have to be a subsequent dribble to signal one specific type of carrying/palming.

There is signal for carrying/palming, but it isn't an actual Rule 9 violation.

When we signal carrying/palming, the actual violation is really an illegal (double) dribble, or a travel.

Palming, or carrying, is when the ball momentarily comes to rest in the dribbler's hand, and the player either travels (moving a foot or feet in excess of prescribed limits while palming/carrying (holding) the ball) with the ball, or illegally dribbles (feet not moving) a second time.

The travel variety of carrying/palming is often seen when a dribbler cups the ball (ball comes to rest) momentarily in one hand as he quickly turns a corner, it becomes a palming, or carrying even before he makes his subsequent dribble as he travels.

Same as if he had just grabbed the ball with one or both hands and taken illegal steps as he turns the corner.

Of course, you could also correctly signal a travel for this cup and turn a corner situation, just like you can correctly signal an illegal (double) dribble for the other variety (feet not moving) of a carrying/palming.

One could go through a entire officiating career and never signal a carry and be 100% correct.

Sure it may be a travel, or it may be an illegal (double) dribble, but sometimes the best signal is a carry because it's more easily understood (good communication, including good signals, means good game management) by coaches, players, and fans, thus the reason for the signal and it's description in the rulebook.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Jan 10, 2021 at 11:25am.
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Old Sat Jan 09, 2021, 07:35pm
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Please Don't Do That Again ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
He did not clap in his opponent's face. He bent over prior to clapping so that the clap was at his opponent's midsection.
Looked at it again. Agree. No technical foul needed. Not even a stern warning, won't even stop the game, but I may mention to the young man, "Please don't do that again" at the next break in the action.
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Old Sat Jan 09, 2021, 08:53pm
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Your definition of palming must be an IAABO or Connecticut thing, because I've never heard of traveling being interchangeable with palming.

Never in my time of playing or officiating basketball have I heard that dribbling, then putting the ball in the palm of your hand, then lifting and replanting your pivot is the same as palming the ball in between dribbles.

The palming signal has always been used to indicate a specific type of illegal dribble where a player has let the ball come to rest in between dribbles.

If a player is dribbling, then let's the ball come to rest, then illegally moves his pivot foot, then dribbles again, he has committed a travel before he has committed an illegal dribble. Just because in that situation it may be more convenient or easier to sell a palming signal than a traveling signal, doesn't mean that palming (an illegal dribble) and traveling are the same thing.


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Old Sat Jan 09, 2021, 09:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Your definition of palming must be an IAABO or Connecticut thing, because I've never heard of traveling being interchangeable with palming.

Never in my time of playing or officiating basketball have I heard that dribbling, then putting the ball in the palm of your hand, then lifting and replanting your pivot is the same as palming the ball in between dribbles.

The palming signal has always been used to indicate a specific type of illegal dribble where a player has let the ball come to rest in between dribbles.

If a player is dribbling, then let's the ball come to rest, then illegally moves his pivot foot, then dribbles again, he has committed a travel before he has committed an illegal dribble. Just because in that situation it may be more convenient or easier to sell a palming signal than a traveling signal, doesn't mean that palming (an illegal dribble) and traveling are the same thing.


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Both can be considered a carry. It is a 6 vs. half dozen thing. Both are correct, just as the former type of carry is also an illegal dribble.

The carry signal/violation was only added to allow more clear communication when it more clearly indicates the infraction that illegal dribble or travel might convey.
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Old Sat Jan 09, 2021, 09:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Both can be considered a carry. It is a 6 vs. half dozen thing. Both are correct, just as the former type of carry is also an illegal dribble.



The carry signal/violation was only added to allow more clear communication when it more clearly indicates the infraction that illegal dribble or travel might convey.
If give a palming signal when a a player travels on a spin move where he shoots but doesn't dribble again, I'm going to lose a lot of credibility with my assigners and coaches around here.

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Old Sun Jan 10, 2021, 04:26am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
If give a palming signal when a a player travels on a spin move where he shoots but doesn't dribble again, I'm going to lose a lot of credibility with my assigners and coaches around here.

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Agree, but if the feet move in the manner of a travel while carrying the ball but the player does eventually dribble again, but you call a travel, you're going to get the same grief. The "carry" in that case is the travel, but no one calls it a travel, they call it a carry.
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Old Sun Jan 10, 2021, 11:06am
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Three Different Violations ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Your definition of palming must be an IAABO or Connecticut thing, because I've never heard of traveling being interchangeable with palming.
Actually, it's not. We have guys here in Connecticut that actually believe that there are, by rule, three separate violations: Traveling, carrying, and double (illegal) dribble. Not a big deal since the two actual violations and the signaled violation are all illegal.

Just like guys that orally state "Double dribble" instead of "Illegal dribble" when the phrase "double dribble" doesn't exist anywhere in the rulebook, casebook, or signal chart. They know the rule, give the signal, say "double dribble", and partners, coaches, players, and fans all know exactly what the violation was.

And traveling is not fully interchangeable with palming. Some types of palming are not traveling, but rather are illegal (double) dribbles. It depends on foot movement, or not; and a subsequent dribble, or not.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Jan 10, 2021 at 12:08pm.
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Old Sun Jan 10, 2021, 11:22am
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Palming/Carrying ...

NFHS Palming/Carrying: The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands.

I can't imagine signaling a carry violation for an act that involves two hands, I would more likely come up with a travel or an illegal (double) dribble, but I guess that it can be called.

I've heard descriptions of palming/carrying, or not, to rookies that involve the hand being perpendicular or parallel to the floor, or the ceiling; and another that uses the thumb of the hand as the hour hand on a clock.

To me, it's just basically the ball coming to rest momentarily in a dribbler's (ball handler's) hand and the dribbler (ball handler) then doing something illegal, be it an illegal (double) subsequent dribble, or a travel (moving a foot or feet in excess of prescribed limits while palming/carrying (holding) the ball).
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Jan 10, 2021 at 02:42pm.
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