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-   -   Fun With A Pivot Foot ... (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/105232-fun-pivot-foot.html)

BillyMac Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:12pm

Fun With A Pivot Foot ...
 
https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...TTEfDOmg%3D%3D

bob jenkins Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:18pm

"gather" isn't completed until LF is on the floor (not that this part really matters) and RF is off the floor. Legal play.

BillyMac Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:49pm

Slow Motion Replay ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1040847)
"gather" isn't completed until LF is on the floor (not that this part really matters) and RF is off the floor. Legal play.

Agree. Tough call. Too bad we don't have slow motion replay in our brains.

If we're not sure it's a travel, it's not a travel.

Camron Rust Sat Jan 09, 2021 01:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1040847)
"gather" isn't completed until LF is on the floor (not that this part really matters) and RF is off the floor. Legal play.

I think the ball is at rest in the hand (dribble ended and ball being held) with the right foot still on the floor and before the left foot is.

If I would call a carry if the player put the ball back down, they have caught the ball and the pivot foot is established.

BillyMac Sat Jan 09, 2021 01:37pm

Speedy Delivery Bang-Bang Play ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1040852)
I think the ball is at rest in the hand ...

Noticed that myself, gave some thought to a carry, and decided no.

There's a lot going on in this "speedy delivery" bang-bang play (watch the hands, watch the feet, watch the ball) which explains why officiating basketball is so difficult and why we get paid the big bucks.

Anybody have any problem with White #11 (the kid who scored) clapping his hands in the face of Gold #3 (whom he beat) after the made basket?

Maybe he wasn't taunting, maybe he was just psyched up, but I may have had a word with him.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Y...=0&w=300&h=300

Raymond Sat Jan 09, 2021 04:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1040854)
Noticed that myself, gave some thought to a carry, and decided no.
...

Why would you consider a carry on this play? There was no subsequent dribble.



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Raymond Sat Jan 09, 2021 04:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1040854)
....

Anybody have any problem with White #11 (the kid who scored) clapping his hands in the face of Gold #3 (whom he beat) after the made basket?

Maybe he wasn't taunting, maybe he was just psyched up, but I may have had a word with him.

He did not clap in his opponent's face. He bent over prior to clapping so that the clap was at his opponent's midsection. He wasn't even making eye contact with his opponent.

As far as the travel or no-travel, I have the player still trying to gain full control of the ball after ending his dribble. I see a bobble while his right foot is down, then full control when it's left foot is down.



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BillyMac Sat Jan 09, 2021 07:31pm

Palming, Carrying ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1040864)
Why would you consider a carry on this play? There was no subsequent dribble.

There doesn't have to be a subsequent dribble to signal one specific type of carrying/palming.

There is signal for carrying/palming, but it isn't an actual Rule 9 violation.

When we signal carrying/palming, the actual violation is really an illegal (double) dribble, or a travel.

Palming, or carrying, is when the ball momentarily comes to rest in the dribbler's hand, and the player either travels (moving a foot or feet in excess of prescribed limits while palming/carrying (holding) the ball) with the ball, or illegally dribbles (feet not moving) a second time.

The travel variety of carrying/palming is often seen when a dribbler cups the ball (ball comes to rest) momentarily in one hand as he quickly turns a corner, it becomes a palming, or carrying even before he makes his subsequent dribble as he travels.

Same as if he had just grabbed the ball with one or both hands and taken illegal steps as he turns the corner.

Of course, you could also correctly signal a travel for this cup and turn a corner situation, just like you can correctly signal an illegal (double) dribble for the other variety (feet not moving) of a carrying/palming.

One could go through a entire officiating career and never signal a carry and be 100% correct.

Sure it may be a travel, or it may be an illegal (double) dribble, but sometimes the best signal is a carry because it's more easily understood (good communication, including good signals, means good game management) by coaches, players, and fans, thus the reason for the signal and it's description in the rulebook.

BillyMac Sat Jan 09, 2021 07:35pm

Please Don't Do That Again ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1040865)
He did not clap in his opponent's face. He bent over prior to clapping so that the clap was at his opponent's midsection.

Looked at it again. Agree. No technical foul needed. Not even a stern warning, won't even stop the game, but I may mention to the young man, "Please don't do that again" at the next break in the action.

Raymond Sat Jan 09, 2021 08:53pm

Your definition of palming must be an IAABO or Connecticut thing, because I've never heard of traveling being interchangeable with palming.

Never in my time of playing or officiating basketball have I heard that dribbling, then putting the ball in the palm of your hand, then lifting and replanting your pivot is the same as palming the ball in between dribbles.

The palming signal has always been used to indicate a specific type of illegal dribble where a player has let the ball come to rest in between dribbles.

If a player is dribbling, then let's the ball come to rest, then illegally moves his pivot foot, then dribbles again, he has committed a travel before he has committed an illegal dribble. Just because in that situation it may be more convenient or easier to sell a palming signal than a traveling signal, doesn't mean that palming (an illegal dribble) and traveling are the same thing.


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Camron Rust Sat Jan 09, 2021 09:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1040869)
Your definition of palming must be an IAABO or Connecticut thing, because I've never heard of traveling being interchangeable with palming.

Never in my time of playing or officiating basketball have I heard that dribbling, then putting the ball in the palm of your hand, then lifting and replanting your pivot is the same as palming the ball in between dribbles.

The palming signal has always been used to indicate a specific type of illegal dribble where a player has let the ball come to rest in between dribbles.

If a player is dribbling, then let's the ball come to rest, then illegally moves his pivot foot, then dribbles again, he has committed a travel before he has committed an illegal dribble. Just because in that situation it may be more convenient or easier to sell a palming signal than a traveling signal, doesn't mean that palming (an illegal dribble) and traveling are the same thing.


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Both can be considered a carry. It is a 6 vs. half dozen thing. Both are correct, just as the former type of carry is also an illegal dribble.

The carry signal/violation was only added to allow more clear communication when it more clearly indicates the infraction that illegal dribble or travel might convey.

Raymond Sat Jan 09, 2021 09:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1040871)
Both can be considered a carry. It is a 6 vs. half dozen thing. Both are correct, just as the former type of carry is also an illegal dribble.



The carry signal/violation was only added to allow more clear communication when it more clearly indicates the infraction that illegal dribble or travel might convey.

If give a palming signal when a a player travels on a spin move where he shoots but doesn't dribble again, I'm going to lose a lot of credibility with my assigners and coaches around here.

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Camron Rust Sun Jan 10, 2021 04:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1040872)
If give a palming signal when a a player travels on a spin move where he shoots but doesn't dribble again, I'm going to lose a lot of credibility with my assigners and coaches around here.

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Agree, but if the feet move in the manner of a travel while carrying the ball but the player does eventually dribble again, but you call a travel, you're going to get the same grief. The "carry" in that case is the travel, but no one calls it a travel, they call it a carry.

BillyMac Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:06am

Three Different Violations ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1040869)
Your definition of palming must be an IAABO or Connecticut thing, because I've never heard of traveling being interchangeable with palming.

Actually, it's not. We have guys here in Connecticut that actually believe that there are, by rule, three separate violations: Traveling, carrying, and double (illegal) dribble. Not a big deal since the two actual violations and the signaled violation are all illegal.

Just like guys that orally state "Double dribble" instead of "Illegal dribble" when the phrase "double dribble" doesn't exist anywhere in the rulebook, casebook, or signal chart. They know the rule, give the signal, say "double dribble", and partners, coaches, players, and fans all know exactly what the violation was.

And traveling is not fully interchangeable with palming. Some types of palming are not traveling, but rather are illegal (double) dribbles. It depends on foot movement, or not; and a subsequent dribble, or not.

BillyMac Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:22am

Palming/Carrying ...
 
NFHS Palming/Carrying: The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands.

I can't imagine signaling a carry violation for an act that involves two hands, I would more likely come up with a travel or an illegal (double) dribble, but I guess that it can be called.

I've heard descriptions of palming/carrying, or not, to rookies that involve the hand being perpendicular or parallel to the floor, or the ceiling; and another that uses the thumb of the hand as the hour hand on a clock.

To me, it's just basically the ball coming to rest momentarily in a dribbler's (ball handler's) hand and the dribbler (ball handler) then doing something illegal, be it an illegal (double) subsequent dribble, or a travel (moving a foot or feet in excess of prescribed limits while palming/carrying (holding) the ball).


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