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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 24, 2019, 04:49pm
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Eight Minutes ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwodar View Post
...If team A isn’t pressing team b can just touch the ball in bounds and sit in the backcourt as long as they’d like?
Only until the end of the period buzzer sounds.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 24, 2019, 04:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Only until the end of the period buzzer sounds.


Welp, I’m glad I no longer play on the off chance you’d be officiating.


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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 24, 2019, 04:59pm
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Player Control Is Obtained Inbounds ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwodar View Post
... that would mean if team B commits a foul while the ball is sitting there in the back court and team A were in the bonus, we would shoot free throws, which is NOT the case.
Since the "team control foul" period on a throwin ends when player control is obtained inbounds, and since player control had not been established inbounds, then there would be no free throws.

4-19-7: A team-control foul is a common foul committed by a member
of the team that has team control or by a member of the throw-in team from
the start of the throw-in until player control is obtained inbounds.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 24, 2019, 05:03pm
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Team Control Foul ...

4.19.7 SITUATION D: A1 has the ball for a throw in. The throw-in pass deflects off of A2. As A2 and B2 are attempting to retrieve the loose throw-in pass, A2 illegally pushes B2 from behind and is called for a foul. Team B is in the bonus. RULING: Team A is in control during this throw in, therefore a team-control foul has been committed. B2 is awarded a throw in at a spot closest to where the foul occurred. (4-12-6)
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 24, 2019, 05:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Since the "team control foul" period on a throwin ends when player control is obtained inbounds, and since player control had not been established inbounds, then there would be no free throws.



4-19-7: A team-control foul is a common foul committed by a member

of the team that has team control or by a member of the throw-in team from

the start of the throw-in until player control is obtained inbounds.


Regardless of the explanation of why this is a team control foul your initial statement about not starting the 10second count until player control is obtained is incorrect.


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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 24, 2019, 06:49pm
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[QUOTE=rwodar;1035010]Regardless of the explanation of why this is a team control foul your initial statement about not starting the 10second count until player control is obtained is incorrect.

It is not incorrect. The Case Play that was cited 4.12.2b specifically tell us on a deflected throw in pass there can be no 3 second violation, no over/back violation and a 10 count cannot be started until the player gains control. Again, team control on throw in plays only applies to fouls committed by the throw in team. Please give us a specific citation from the RB, CB or Officials Manual that says the official should start the count when the throw in pass is touched/deflected.

Last edited by billyu2; Thu Oct 24, 2019 at 06:57pm.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 24, 2019, 06:51pm
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Reading Is Fundamental ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwodar View Post
Regardless of the explanation of why this is a team control foul your initial statement about not starting the 10second count until player control is obtained is incorrect.
Basketball Points of Emphasis - 2017-18
2. Team control, throw-in ...Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.


NFHS 9-8: A player shall not be, nor may his/her team be, in continuous control of the ball which is in his/her backcourt for 10 seconds.

NFHS 4-12: CONTROL, PLAYER AND TEAM
ART. 1 A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or -
dribbling a live ball.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Oct 24, 2019 at 06:54pm.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 24, 2019, 07:04pm
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[QUOTE=billyu2;1035011]
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwodar View Post
Regardless of the explanation of why this is a team control foul your initial statement about not starting the 10second count until player control is obtained is incorrect.

It is not incorrect. The Case Play that was cited 4.12.2b specifically tell us on a deflected throw in pass there can be no 3 second violation, no over/back violation and a 10 count cannot be started until the player gains control. Again, team control on throw in plays only applies to fouls committed by the throw in team. Please give us a specific citation from the RB, CB or Officials Manual that says the official should start the count when the throw in pass is touched/deflected.


4.12.2b doesn’t quite make sense to me... in the situation they say team a is inbounding in the backcourt but then also say that the ball “crosses the division line” implying when A3 gains control it would be in the from court...THEN in the ruling they say “the backcourt count does not start until A3 gains control in the backcourt..? The ruling contradicts the situation.


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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 24, 2019, 07:10pm
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Just to add another voice to the many correct once, since someone doesn't want to believe it...

* Team control for fouls begins when the thrower has the ball.

* Team control for ALL other purposes begins when a player inbounds established layer control.

Both forms of team control end in the same way: dead ball, other team gains control, or a try is released.

This rule really needs to be rewritten. I may take that challenge on now.
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Old Thu Oct 24, 2019, 07:50pm
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[QUOTE=rwodar;1035013]
Quote:
Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post



4.12.2b doesn’t quite make sense to me... in the situation they say team a is inbounding in the backcourt but then also say that the ball “crosses the division line” implying when A3 gains control it would be in the from court...THEN in the ruling they say “the backcourt count does not start until A3 gains control in the backcourt..? The ruling contradicts the situation.

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The Case Play starts with an end line throw in by Team A at the basket they are attempting to score at. The deflected pass then goes into Team A's back court. The spot of the throw in doesn't matter since all throw ins originate out of bounds any deflected throw in to that team's back court would still not require a ten count to start until a player from that team gained control of the ball.

Last edited by billyu2; Thu Oct 24, 2019 at 08:07pm.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 08:13am
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Until The End Of The Period Buzzer Sounds ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwodar View Post
...If team A isn’t pressing team b can just touch the ball in bounds and sit in the backcourt as long as they’d like?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Only until the end of the period buzzer sounds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwodar View Post
I’m glad I no longer play on the off chance you’d be officiating.
And if B1 makes a throwin pass from under Team B’s own basket, while Team A is just passively sitting back in a zone defense, and B2 just touches, but does not control the throwin pass while in Team B’s frontcourt near the division line, and B2 just puts out his hand and touches the pass, the ball falling to the floor, eventually not bouncing, all while B1, B3, B4, B5 are standing in the lane, I’m not starting a three second count, and in fact those four players can stay in the lane until the end of the period buzzer sounds if B2 never holds or dribbles the ball, and just allows it to remain on the floor at his feet.

rwodar. How do you like them apples?
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 08:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
And if B1 makes a throwin pass from under Team B’s own basket, while Team A is just passively sitting back in a zone defense, and B2 just touches, but does not control the throwin pass while in Team B’s frontcourt near the division line, and B2 just puts out his hand and touches the pass, the ball falling to the floor, eventually not bouncing, all while B1, B3, B4, B5 are standing in the lane, I’m not starting a three second count, and in fact those four players can stay in the lane until the end of the period buzzer sounds if B2 never holds or dribbles the ball, and just allows it to remain on the floor at his feet.



rwodar. How do you like them apples?


I wave the white flag here and concede that there is nothing in the rule book to support my argument. This is a wild scenario that I was wrong about, the 10 second discussion conflicts with the college rule (count starts once ball is legally touched) and it blows my mind how flawed the HS rule seems to be. My apologies for being abrasive about it.


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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 08:22am
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Indeed, why not rewrite the NFHS rule for team control (and, by extension, the backcourt 10-second count) to match the college rule? If there is team control for 1 purpose (fouls) why not have team control for other purposes as well.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 08:24am
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Throw-in NFHS

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Indeed, why not rewrite the NFHS rule for team control (and, by extension, the backcourt 10-second count) to match the college rule? If there is team control for 1 purpose (fouls) why not have team control for other purposes as well.


I am in complete agreement here... the fact that a situation exists based on the rules where a team can sit in the back court unguarded for significantly longer than 10 seconds is absurd.


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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 08:29am
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Scary Stories To The Young'uns ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
This rule really needs to be rewritten.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Basketball Points of Emphasis - 2017-18
2. Team control, throw-in. The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.
Is team control during a throwin a two year old Point of Emphasis that rookie officials would only fully and truly understand by the oral traditions of old, grizzled, veteran officials sitting around a campfire eating beans, passing gas, and telling scary stories about ancient Points of Emphasis to young'uns?

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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Oct 25, 2019 at 09:58am.
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