Throw-in NFHS

[rwodar]

Can I circle back here? Are we saying no team control exists between the time the throw in ends (B2 touches it in the back court) and someone gaining player control?


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[SC Official]

Originally Posted by rwodar

Can I circle back here? Are we saying no team control exists between the time the throw in ends (B2 touches it in the back court) and someone gaining player control?


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You are confusing team control for foul purposes and team control for everything else. This is understandable if you haven't read NFHS interps/comments since the rule as written still leaves something to be desired.

Team control for foul purposes begins when the throw-in begins. A loose ball following a legal touch would still be under team control of the throw-in team for fouls only (i.e. we don't shoot FTs).

For violations there is no team control until player control is established inbounds. This is why a throw-in that is deflected by A1 in his FC that is then touched by Team A in its BC is not a BC violation.

[rwodar]

Originally Posted by SC Official

You are confusing team control for foul purposes and team control for everything else. This is understandable if you haven't read NFHS interps/comments since the rule as written still leaves something to be desired.



Team control for foul purposes begins when the throw-in begins. A loose ball following a legal touch would still be under team control of the throw-in team for fouls only (i.e. we don't shoot FTs).



For violations there is no team control until player control is established inbounds. This is why a throw-in that is deflected by A1 in his FC that is then touched by Team A in its BC is not a BC violation.

Thank you. Can this be found in the 2019-2020 rule book?


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rwodar

Can this be found in the 2019-2020 rule book?

Yes.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4-19-7: A team-control foul is a common foul committed by a member of the team that has team control or by a member of the throw-in team from the start of the throw-in until player control is obtained inbounds.

[rwodar]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Yes.

So this explains the foul portion but doesn’t help explain the 10 second count start point.


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rwodar

So this explains the foul portion but doesn’t help explain the 10 second count start point.

Which is why we need additional citations:

9-8: A player shall not be, nor may his/her team be, in continuous control of the ball which is in his/her backcourt for 10 seconds.

4-12-2: A team is in control of the ball:
a. When a player of the team is in control.
b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.

4-12-1: A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball.

Fouls (Rule 10) and violations (Rule 9)? Apples and oranges.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by rwodar

So this explains the foul portion but doesn’t help explain the 10 second count start point.


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Back in old days the control, player and team rule, 4-12 did not contain 4-12-2d-“when a player of team has disposal of ball for throwin.” Also, 4-12-6 used to specifically say there is no team control during a throwin. It was clear back then team control was an INBOUNDS concept. There was also no team control foul definition.

They then decided they didn’t want to shoot so many free throws so they created team control fouls and said no FTs for those. As mentioned above, team control definition was an inbounds thing. So no FTs for illegal screens etc. by team in control of ball inbounds. FTs were still shot if the throwin team fouled during the throwin. (Assuming bonus)
They then decided they didn’t want to shoot FTs when throwin team fouled during throwin so they added 4-12-2d language.

Adding that language to the rest of rule 4-12 makes it read like once ball at disposal for throwin team control exists and continues until ball dead, field goal attempt etc. I understand the confusion of it because it reads like you interpreted it.

As noted by others, they added language to make it clear team control during throwin and in til player control is obtained is for foul purposes only.

They were not intending to change Violation concepts. BC count has always started when player controls ball inbounds. They were trying to eliminate some FTs and confused many folks.

[ilyazhito]

There are only 2 logically consistent ways to resolve this conundrum of having team control exist (and simultaneously not exist) at different times for different purposes: either eliminate throw-ins from the discussion of team control altogether, or introduce a shot clock into NFHS basketball.

Some states use a shot clock with the visible 10-second count (MD boys), while others have modified their backcourt count rule to incorporate a non-visible count that starts per existing college rules (DC boys). In either approach, the states using a shot clock recognize that team control exists from the throw-in. The only question is whether player control is required (or not) to start the 10-second count off the throw-in. However, we (the NFHS rules-making and enforcing community) can decide this once a shot clock is adopted for high school basketball, whether nationally or by one's local state association.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Team control for foul purposes begins when the throw-in begins. A loose ball following a legal touch would still be under team control of the throw-in team for fouls only (i.e. we don't shoot FTs).

Agree.

The "team control foul" period on a throwin ends when player control is obtained inbounds.

4-19-7: A team-control foul is a common foul committed by a member of the team that has team control or by a member of the throw-in team from the start of the throw-in until player control is obtained inbounds.