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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 14, 2019, 01:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
If it was up to me, I would mandate the shot clock for postseason play, because that is where the stalling strategy is most likely to rear it's ugly head (early rounds can have one team coming in who is over matched relative to the other).
I have worked the postseason every year since 2004 in boys basketball. I have yet to see a single game where a team held the ball for several minutes to limit possessions. Now there are teams that might pass the ball around to keep away a little, but usually, that ends up in a bad turnover or making the team so unaggressive that they often lose the game. Mainly because doing this stops their rhythm to make shots or to even take an open shot they did earlier in the game. I am OK with a shot clock in the long run, but not just for one part of the season or the most important part of the season. And in the postseason here, everyone participates. You play regardless of your record and regardless if you win a certain amount of games. Yes there are some games. Not many changes anyway.

Honestly, the best teams in the postseason can play multiple ways to win. They are not married to a zone where they only win playing that one way. It is great to have something that makes the game more entertaining, but many teams I see still play basketball and do not need to hold the ball to have an advantage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
In many cases, postseason games (especially in later rounds), are played at neutral sites that already have functioning shot clock equipment.
Almost all of our postseason games are with teams that are at a neutral site. So we cannot use that as the standard for a shot clock. And the host school is often in the early round which is our Regionals. After that, the Sectional is often not participating at that level. And I am sure it is different or similar across the country. You cannot judge your experience alone as the reason to make a change like this. None of that is going to matter when the actual decisions are being made.

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 14, 2019, 05:47pm
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Have you heard about the 2-0 travesty between Bibb County and Brookwood in Alabama? Or the Waseca-Marshall girls game in Minnesota that ended 17-4 after 2 halves of play? These games are rare, but the NBA had seen enough of this nonsense way back in 1954 to decide to institute a shot clock for the next season. This is almost 65 years to the day that a shot clock was implemented in the NBA, yet only a few states have a shot clock (+ DC) on a permanent basis, and a few more states are currently experimenting with shot clocks at tournament games.

As a fan of basketball, I feel that a shot clock is necessary to avoid the possibility of this travesty reappearing.

As an official, I believe that the shot clock will improve the game, because I will have to make less decisions about deliberate fouls in the last few minutes of a relatively close (1-3) possession game, and certain rules would be simpler to administer. No one can accuse me of having a fast 10-second count if my count starts at 30 seconds on the shot clock and ends at 20! No one could accuse me of a fast 5-second count closely guarded if I start my count at 17 seconds and call a 5-second violation with 12 (or 11) showing on the shot clock. There will be errors by the officials and table personnel, but that is the cost of having a game played and administered by humans. It just falls on me and my partners to be more clock aware, because it would be more obvious that both game and shot clock fail to start than if just the game clock fails to start. My partners and I would just make the corrections as needed with both the game and shot clock, and instruct both operators carefully before the game (even though that would probably not affect the amount of errors).

I mentioned neutral sites because if postseason games use neutral sites with shot clock equipment, there is no cost to install (or bring in) shot clock equipment for those games.

Last edited by ilyazhito; Mon Jan 14, 2019 at 05:53pm.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 14, 2019, 05:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Have you heard about the 2-0 travesty between Bibb County and Brookwood in Alabama? Or the Waseca-Marshall girls game in Minnesota that ended 17-4 after 2 halves of play? These games are rare, but the NBA had seen enough of this nonsense way back in 1954 to decide to institute a shot clock for the next season. This is almost 65 years to the day that a shot clock was implemented in the NBA, yet only a few states have a shot clock (+ DC) on a permanent basis, and a few more states are currently experimenting with shot clocks at tournament games.

As a fan of basketball, I feel that a shot clock is necessary to avoid the possibility of this travesty reappearing.

As an official, I believe that the shot clock will improve the game, because I will have to make less decisions about deliberate fouls in the last few minutes of a relatively close (1-3) possession game, and certain rules would be simpler to administer. No one can accuse me of having a fast 10-second count if my count starts at 30 seconds on the shot clock and ends at 20! No one could accuse me of a fast 5-second count closely guarded if I start my count at 17 seconds and call a 5-second violation with 12 (or 11) showing on the shot clock. There will be errors by the officials and table personnel, but that is the cost of having a game played and administered by humans. It just falls on me and my partners to be more clock aware, because it would be more obvious that both game and shot clock fail to start than if just the game clock fails to start. My partners and I would just make the corrections as needed with both the game and shot clock, and instruct both operators carefully before the game (even though that would probably not affect the amount of errors).

I mentioned neutral sites because if postseason games use neutral sites with shot clock equipment, there is no cost to install (or bring in) shot clock equipment for those games.
The NBA cares about fans...because itís for profit...the NCAA does the same and is also for profit..( while claiming to be amateur league...) High school basketball isnít for fans. Isnít there to make your life as an official easier. If your team is better then win. The game has been this way for a long time. You want to add shot clock to favor certain teams, certain fans, certain officials who canít concentrate...bad idea..
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 14, 2019, 06:32pm
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A quick google search shows 37,000 high schools in the US. Let's say a about a quarter of them have shot clocks now. That leaves about 28,000 of them. At $7500 per gym (which I believe was the estimate above) that's $210 million to have shot clocks at every school. So for a handful of games that have a stalling "travesty"*--and they make the news because they are rare--there should be over $200 million spent out of school budgets. (About 2/3 of that is public schools.)

In my experience, I kinda like the shot clock. In high quality high school play, it doesn't have a huge impact on the game, except in the final couple of minutes when it does reduce (not eliminate) deliberate fouling.

And, at the risk of being overly snarky, if a ref needs a shot clock to make his life easier, perhaps the ref should find something else to do with his time.

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* I think the travesty concept is overblown balderdash. If you don't like the other team stalling, go get the freaking ball from them.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 15, 2019, 03:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
The NBA cares about fans...because itís for profit...the NCAA does the same and is also for profit..( while claiming to be amateur league...) High school basketball isnít for fans. Isnít there to make your life as an official easier. If your team is better then win. The game has been this way for a long time. You want to add shot clock to favor certain teams, certain fans, certain officials who canít concentrate...bad idea..
A shot clock does not favor certain teams, rather teams adapt (or fail to adapt) to the shot clock. The shot clock merely sets a minimum speed limit of sorts for playing the game. How would you cross an intersection controlled by a traffic light, not knowing how much time you had left? There are cues (the white man vs the red/orange hand in the US), but there is also a timer shown on the pedestrian crossing device to aid pedestrians. I would imagine the roads would be chaos without speed limits, because certain drivers would hold up others by being obscenely slow, and others would cause accidents by zooming around way faster than the others. Just like a speed limit sets a consistent expectation for the speed that cars travel (although cars often tend to travel faster than the written limit, without cameras), so does the shot clock set a consistent expectation of a minimum pace for basketball teams. If a team does not actively try to score (fails to attempt a shot in a set amount of time), they lose possession, and the other team gets to try to score. If there are other time limits in the game for other basic basketball actions (a 3-second limit of being in the lane, 5-second limits for the throw-in and possessing the ball while closely guarded, and 10 seconds from crossing from front to backcourt (8 in NBA and FIBA rules), as well as 10 seconds to shoot free throws), why shouldn't there be an overall time limit to possessions? That would be consistent with the rest of the basketball rules (time limits to perform specific actions common to the game).
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 15, 2019, 08:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
A shot clock does not favor certain teams, rather teams adapt (or fail to adapt) to the shot clock. ....
This statement alone tells me you've never played the game and that you have officiated a very limited amount of basketball games. You have no natural feel for the game, everything to you is black and white. You also come off as a know-it-all.

The rest of your post about traffic lights and the such I didn't bother to read.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 15, 2019, 08:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
A shot clock does not favor certain teams, rather teams adapt (or fail to adapt) to the shot clock.
And high schools (generally) can't adapt -- they have to use the kids who are in their district. Colleges (recruiting) and pros (drafting) can get the players -- and there are far fewer of them than HSs.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 15, 2019, 09:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Have you heard about the 2-0 travesty between Bibb County and Brookwood in Alabama? Or the Waseca-Marshall girls game in Minnesota that ended 17-4 after 2 halves of play? These games are rare, but the NBA had seen enough of this nonsense way back in 1954 to decide to institute a shot clock for the next season. This is almost 65 years to the day that a shot clock was implemented in the NBA, yet only a few states have a shot clock (+ DC) on a permanent basis, and a few more states are currently experimenting with shot clocks at tournament games.

As a fan of basketball, I feel that a shot clock is necessary to avoid the possibility of this travesty reappearing.

As an official, I believe that the shot clock will improve the game, because I will have to make less decisions about deliberate fouls in the last few minutes of a relatively close (1-3) possession game, and certain rules would be simpler to administer. No one can accuse me of having a fast 10-second count if my count starts at 30 seconds on the shot clock and ends at 20! No one could accuse me of a fast 5-second count closely guarded if I start my count at 17 seconds and call a 5-second violation with 12 (or 11) showing on the shot clock. There will be errors by the officials and table personnel, but that is the cost of having a game played and administered by humans. It just falls on me and my partners to be more clock aware, because it would be more obvious that both game and shot clock fail to start than if just the game clock fails to start. My partners and I would just make the corrections as needed with both the game and shot clock, and instruct both operators carefully before the game (even though that would probably not affect the amount of errors).
These "travesties" don't happen as often as you imply they do. They happen in a microscopic percentage of all the games played. Unfortunately you fall victim to sensationalized journalism which makes it seem like these things are the norm rather than the exception.

You can use the game clock for the exact same things you say the shot clock would be helpful for.

You act like you can just throw a shot clock into the game and everything will be all fine and dandy. At least in my area, there are 30-year "veteran" officials that haven't made any attempt to improve in 29 years. Now all of a sudden we're going to entrust them with knowing shot clock rules and catching/fixing table errors? Or we're going to use it for the postseason after going the entire regular season without it? You come across as so ignorant it's disturbing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
And, at the risk of being overly snarky, if a ref needs a shot clock to make his life easier, perhaps the ref should find something else to do with his time.
The idea that the shot clock makes things easier for officials is utter nonsense. The only thing that screws up a game more than a bad table and having to fix the SC every other possession, is a bad table and officials who aren't competent enough to catch and fix SC errors.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 15, 2019, 11:30am
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The shot clock was thrown into the game for boys in MD, and for both genders in DC. Girls officials have been using a shot clock since MD adopted one in 1970, but boys officials only started using one in 2017 (when the MPSSAA adopted a shot clock for boys). To prepare for the change, Al Battista, the rules interpreter, made a presentation about new rules (including the shot clock rule for boys), and the MPSSAA released cards with the shot clock and mercy rule information on them to be distributed to officials (I have both the 2017-18 edition, from when the 35-second shot clock was introduced, and this year's edition, with the change to a 30-second shot clock for boys). The system seems to be working, even if there are veteran officials who have stopped progressing. DC also seems to have taken the shot clock in stride ever since it was implemented.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 15, 2019, 11:40am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
The shot clock was thrown into the game for boys in MD, and for both genders in DC. Girls officials have been using a shot clock since MD adopted one in 1970, but boys officials only started using one in 2017 (when the MPSSAA adopted a shot clock for boys). To prepare for the change, Al Battista, the rules interpreter, made a presentation about new rules (including the shot clock rule for boys), and the MPSSAA released cards with the shot clock and mercy rule information on them to be distributed to officials (I have both the 2017-18 edition, from when the 35-second shot clock was introduced, and this year's edition, with the change to a 30-second shot clock for boys). The system seems to be working, even if there are veteran officials who have stopped progressing. DC also seems to have taken the shot clock in stride ever since it was implemented.
How man Maryland high schools are there? How many in DC?

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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 15, 2019, 03:32pm
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MD has 198 member schools in MPSSAA (public schools only). DCSAA has 49 schools, including public, private, and charter schools.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 15, 2019, 05:32pm
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Less Decisions ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
As an official, I believe that the shot clock will improve the game, because I will have to make less decisions ...
Less decisions? I know little about shot clocks because Connecticut only uses shot clocks for varsity private prep school games, but it seems to me that anything that speeds up the game will make it harder for officials, if not, certainly not easier. Forget about possible mistakes by table crews for now, but just think of a game where there are more shots, more rushed shots, more misses, more rebounds, etc. These definitely invite many more decisions that will have to be made by officials.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
No one can accuse me of having a fast 10-second count if my count starts at 30 seconds on the shot clock and ends at 20! No one could accuse me of a fast 5-second count closely guarded if I start my count at 17 seconds and call a 5-second violation with 12 (or 11) showing on the shot clock.
Reaching for straws here, same thing can be demonstrated on video with a game clock or a stopwatch.

But, hey, what do I know, I've only been doing this for thirty-eight years compared to ilyazhito's, what, fifty-plus years?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Jan 15, 2019 at 05:57pm.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 15, 2019, 05:51pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
MD has 198 member schools in MPSSAA (public schools only). DCSAA has 49 schools, including public, private, and charter schools.
That is not even a third of the schools we have in our state that play basketball.

My point is you want to change a rule for one or two situations we might hear about. That is not the norm or even the issue. A lot of teams in my state play uptempo and a shot clock would only complicate things.

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  #59 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 15, 2019, 06:48pm
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Less decisions? I know little about shot clocks because Connecticut only uses shot clocks for varsity private prep school games, but it seems to me that anything that speeds up the game will make it harder for officials, if not, certainly not easier. Forget about possible mistakes by table crews for now, but just think of a game where there are more shots, more rushed shots, more misses, more rebounds, etc. These definitely invite many more decisions that will have to be made by officials.



Reaching for straws here, same thing can be demonstrated on video with a game clock or a stopwatch.

But, hey, what do I know, I've only been doing this for thirty-eight years compared to ilyazhito's, what, fifty-plus years?
Read the full sentence. If you take words out of context, you will miss the point of what I wrote. The full sentence said "With a shot clock, I will have to make less decisions about deliberate end-of-game fouls." This is in reference to a specific situation, not to making less or more decisions in general. Please stop taking quotations from me out of context to imply things that I did not mean. This only muddies the water and distracts us from productive discussion.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 15, 2019, 08:02pm
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Two Minute Drill ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
The full sentence said "With a shot clock, I will have to make less decisions about deliberate end-of-game fouls." This is in reference to a specific situation, not to making less or more decisions in general.
Last time I checked, the game was more than two minutes long.

Your shot clock would lead to more decisions in general, exactly the point of my post, really didn't need your quote, I hope that you ducked because it went right over your head, just missed.

Sounds like you don't like, or lack self confidence, making end of game decisions regarding intentional/non intentional fouls. While that's certainly fair, you are also willing to trade fewer of these decisions for thirty minutes of decisions regarding more shots, more rushed shots, more misses, more rebounds, etc.

Yeah, that's exactly what experienced officials like in their games, more shots, more rushed shots, more misses, and more rebounds. The more the merrier. These situations just make the game so much easier to work, even a cavemen can do it.

And please explain again how a shot clock will help with five second closely guarded calls, help that a game clock, or a video and a stopwatch won't provide?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Jan 16, 2019 at 10:46am.
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