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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 13, 2019, 04:49pm
CJP CJP is offline
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Originally Posted by Bad Zebra View Post
Disagree...between the additional expense (it would have to be 100% adoption state wide. Thatís a MASSIVE investment in my state) and the heightened need for qualified table personnel, I donít think it will happen any time soon.

The truth is that ďstall ballĒ is employed ina tiny percentage of games. It only gets discussed (the need for a shot clock) because of sensationalized headlines and social media hype.
Massive investment? North and South Dakota are about as conservative as they come. If both of those states can make the change, any state can do it. Finding table personal has also been a challenge that is not really challenging. I have officiated in some very small, rural, communities and they get it done.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 13, 2019, 04:51pm
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Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
... but the shot clock will not by itself make or break the quality of the table personnel..
I don't think you have enough experience to make that assessment.


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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 13, 2019, 05:09pm
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Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
Way too many big words for me in your post....tell it to me like Iím a 6th grader..��. Shot clocks simply encourage more shots.. up and down play. That is/was exciting when itís done well. Unfortunately, I see teams rush from end to end and itís turnover to turnover. Bad shot to bad shot. . No real offense run. If my team is truly better than yours I will pressure you everywhere. If your good enough to hold the ball vs my pressure and win 10-4 then u deserve it.
Shot clocks help officials focus more (fringe benefit), reduce deliberate fouls in the last 4 minutes of the game, and do not allow offenses to dictate the tempo of the game by holding the ball indefinitely. The long (40+ seconds) possessions often do NOT benefit the offensive teams. Shot clocks also make it easier to administer the closely guarded and 10-second rules.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 13, 2019, 05:28pm
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Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Shot clocks help officials focus more (fringe benefit), reduce deliberate fouls in the last 4 minutes of the game, and do not allow offenses to dictate the tempo of the game by holding the ball indefinitely. The long (40+ seconds) possessions often do NOT benefit the offensive teams. Shot clocks also make it easier to administer the closely guarded and 10-second rules.
No they donít...I donít need an extra reason to concentrate in last 4 minutes..Offenses dictate tempo if they are allowed to. If Iím more talented teami will shove ball down your throat. Offensively..and then pressure you relentlessly. If you are on offense and can dictate tempo that means my defense isnít good enough. I donít see well but I can count to 5 (or 8) or 10 (or 12)
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 13, 2019, 06:50pm
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Originally Posted by CJP View Post
Massive investment? North and South Dakota are about as conservative as they come. If both of those states can make the change, any state can do it. Finding table personal has also been a challenge that is not really challenging. I have officiated in some very small, rural, communities and they get it done.
North and South Dakota are also as sparsely populated as they come. Iím in Florida...there has to be THOUSANDS of high schools here so I think it would be a massive investment.

Maybe itís our distracted student population or (lack of) basketball popularity, but table personnel are VERY challenging here. A shot clock will not help our cause in my opinion.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 13, 2019, 07:01pm
CJP CJP is offline
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Originally Posted by Bad Zebra View Post
North and South Dakota are also as sparsely populated as they come. I’m in Florida...there has to be THOUSANDS of high schools here so I think it would be a massive investment.

Maybe it’s our distracted student population or (lack of) basketball popularity, but table personnel are VERY challenging here. A shot clock will not help our cause in my opinion.
I know one school paid about $7500 (installed) for new shot clock equipment. It is not that expensive.

Last edited by CJP; Sun Jan 13, 2019 at 07:14pm.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 13, 2019, 07:53pm
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Originally Posted by CJP View Post
I know one school paid about $7500 (installed) for new shot clock equipment. It is not that expensive.
That is more than I will make officiating for the entire season!
So it would more than double a schoolís expense for basketball. In other words the school could pay for all of the officials for the entire season for less than that amount.

Not likely that shot clocks are coming.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 13, 2019, 08:01pm
CJP CJP is offline
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
That is more than I will make officiating for the entire season!
So it would more than double a schoolís expense for basketball. In other words the school could pay for all of the officials for the entire season for less than that amount.

Not likely that shot clocks are coming.
It would not double the schools basketball budget. Don't be so dramatic.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 13, 2019, 09:02pm
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Originally Posted by CJP View Post
It would not double the schools basketball budget. Don't be so dramatic.
Well, are you sure? What would the rule be? Only varsity? There are schools that have multiple gyms. So it could drastically increase the budget of many schools. Heck schools a few years ago were complaining about not being able to buy new uniforms in just one sport, so not sure why this is not a bigger expense. Granted it might be mostly a one-time big expense up front, but that is still a big expense.

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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 13, 2019, 09:50pm
CJP CJP is offline
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Well, are you sure? What would the rule be? Only varsity? There are schools that have multiple gyms. So it could drastically increase the budget of many schools. Heck schools a few years ago were complaining about not being able to buy new uniforms in just one sport, so not sure why this is not a bigger expense. Granted it might be mostly a one-time big expense up front, but that is still a big expense.

Peace
My idea of a high school basketball budget is all basketball related personnel (coaches, clock operators, and officials) , equipment and uniforms for grades 9-12. If you only want to "charge" the cost of the clocks to the teams that use them, I see them used at the V, Jv, and freshman levels. Most programs I see have 4 coaches (boys and girls). It is a safe bet that those 4 coaches have a combined salary of $15K.

If you don't like what the cost of clocks will be, let your local school board know. The cost to me as a taxpayer was not noticeable (at least the way things work in my parts).

My state has them. I like them. I did not go broke paying for them.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 13, 2019, 10:50pm
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Originally Posted by CJP View Post
I know one school paid about $7500 (installed).... It is not that expensive.


Thatís a hell of a lot more than I would have guessed...that IS expensive.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 13, 2019, 11:27pm
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Originally Posted by CJP View Post
My idea of a high school basketball budget is all basketball related personnel (coaches, clock operators, and officials) , equipment and uniforms for grades 9-12. If you only want to "charge" the cost of the clocks to the teams that use them, I see them used at the V, Jv, and freshman levels. Most programs I see have 4 coaches (boys and girls). It is a safe bet that those 4 coaches have a combined salary of $15K.

If you don't like what the cost of clocks will be, let your local school board know. The cost to me as a taxpayer was not noticeable (at least the way things work in my parts).

My state has them. I like them. I did not go broke paying for them.
I do not think it really matters what the basketball budget is. The athletic department in many areas is claiming they are strapped for money and they are struggling for uniforms, they might not be able to easily cover this cost. That is why IMO it has never passed nationally. Sure some sponsorships might help, but not all schools have those kinds of extra funds coming in. And at least where I am, coaches are often school employees and paid more for being a teacher and not being a coach. It is a package deal to hire a coach/teacher. And not all schools are using taxpayer money. Private schools also apply and many of them might be able to get the money, but it would take some effort to do so.

NOt saying it cannot ever be done. IT could, but not sure why this is such an issue when it very rarely happens. We have enough problems at the small college ranks with table people and now we are thinking we will have no problems with a shot clock at thousands of schools across the country. We will hear of many situations were the clock becomes a bigger factor than it is now.

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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 14, 2019, 06:20am
CJP CJP is offline
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I do not think it really matters what the basketball budget is. The athletic department in many areas is claiming they are strapped for money and they are struggling for uniforms, they might not be able to easily cover this cost. That is why IMO it has never passed nationally. Sure some sponsorships might help, but not all schools have those kinds of extra funds coming in. And at least where I am, coaches are often school employees and paid more for being a teacher and not being a coach. It is a package deal to hire a coach/teacher. And not all schools are using taxpayer money. Private schools also apply and many of them might be able to get the money, but it would take some effort to do so.

NOt saying it cannot ever be done. IT could, but not sure why this is such an issue when it very rarely happens. We have enough problems at the small college ranks with table people and now we are thinking we will have no problems with a shot clock at thousands of schools across the country. We will hear of many situations were the clock becomes a bigger factor than it is now.

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I don't see the point in extending this. I will probably never officiate another high school ball game without a shot clock.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 14, 2019, 08:33am
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Originally Posted by CJP View Post
I know one school paid about $7500 (installed) for new shot clock equipment. It is not that expensive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Zebra View Post


That’s a hell of a lot more than I would have guessed...that IS expensive.
I'm in the "expensive" camp. Let's assume a school hosts 50 combined varsity and JV games in a season. Now take the cost of the shot clock and divide by 50 to get $150/per game. To reduce that down to the $5 raise that a 3-person official in, say, Wisconsin, could certainly use would take 10 years (150/10=15, 15/3=5). So investing in a shot clock could conceivably set back a modest $5 officials' pay raise by 10 years (and that's just the varsity officials; this says nothing for sub-varsity officials). That would be a significant loss in pay after inflation.

I'm in a state right now where I think the pay is frankly too high, but in lots of places it's way too low with severe reluctance to raise it. Yet we feel obligated to mandate a shot clock? Yeah....no wonder Wisconsin reconsidered it's shot clock dictum last year. That was a smart decision.

Last edited by crosscountry55; Mon Jan 14, 2019 at 08:52am.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 14, 2019, 09:21am
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This is such a solution looking for a problem.

If you operate under the assumption that this type of basketball is an abomination and should be banned, the reality is that it's only employed in a microscopic percentage of high school games. Based on social media you would think half of the high school coaches in the country employ stall ball; that's simply not true. Why don't more defenses pressure opponents that play this style of offense and force them to do something?

Cost is a big deal whether or not people like to hear it. Granted, I find it humorous to hear schools b*tch and moan about not having money to give officials a modest pay increase while simultaneously rolling out the "latest and greatest" new uniforms every year and spending a fortune to make their gyms look the best in the state. A shot clock sounds great until administrators see the price tag just for the equipment; then there are the installation costs as well as having to pay and train someone competent enough to run the thing correctly. Heck some schools have scoreboards that are so old that I'm not even sure it's possible to synchronize and wire the shot clocks; so now you're asking them to buy new scoreboards, as well. And many schools have more than one gym.

For as many issues as there are running shot clocks correctly at the small college level, those problems get magnified in high school and turn into big headaches for officials. Also there are so many 20-year "veteran" officials that I would not feel comfortable managing the shot clock and learning all the rules (in many cases they can't even manage the game clock).

What is the reward of enduring these growing pains? To be more like college? To force more (bad) shots?

Also, people forget that this is high school basketball. A coach's job is to employ the best strategy for his/her team to win. At the high school level the talent spectrum is much wider than the college level, so it's not unreasonable that the rules allow for more strategies to be competitive regardless of how "entertaining" they may be. HS sports do not exist to entertain fans nor to "get kids ready for the next level."

At most I could see the NFHS making this an allowable state adoption. I do not see it being mandated nationwide. And if it were it wouldn't be immediate; there would be a 3-5 year buffer to allow schools and states to budget properly and implement all the requirements.
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