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BillyMac Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:33am

Stall Ball ...
 
https://news.yahoo.com/high-school-b...174914578.html

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.B...=0&w=295&h=166

Freddy Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:58am

No mention of whether the defense expended any "closely guarded" efforts, or whether the crew responded with merited five second closely guarded counts.

Just a modicum of defensive initiative out on the perimeter combined with a crew initiating the called for counts typically thwarts any stalling efforts on the part of one team. Unless the other team intentionally plays to get stalled on.

BillyMac Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:09am

2-3 Zone ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1028639)
No mention of whether the defense expended any "closely guarded" efforts, or whether the crew responded with merited five second closely guarded counts.

Just a modicum of defensive initiative out on the perimeter combined with a crew initiating the called for counts typically thwarts any stalling efforts on the part of one team. Unless the other team intentionally plays to get stalled on.

From the comments:

Oak ridge sat in a 2-3 zone for the entire first half. They are an unbelievable team that could have easily pressured them out of stall ball but didn't.

So evidently the better team here just stayed in a 2 - 3 zone and allowed the stall.

Freddy Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1028640)
From the comments:

Oak ridge sat in a 2-3 zone for the entire first half. They are an unbelievable team that could have easily pressured them out of stall ball but didn't.

So evidently the better team here just stayed in a 2 - 3 zone and allowed the stall.

Sorry...missed that part of the article. Then it's on them. If good defense wins games, then the team lauded as the better team lost it for themselves.
Corollary point on topic: this isn't a cause for the shot clock in those states that don't have one. It's an instance where both teams did exactly as they intended to do. The acclaimed better team could have played the most minimal defense and thwarted the stalling team's strategy. They chose not to.
Apparently.
I reserve the right to be wrong.

crosscountry55 Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:30am

We saw the proverbial “this isn’t getting the kids ready for college basketball” quote.

Tell me again the percentage of NFHS basketball players that go on to play college basketball?

You want 100% of schools to pay for a shot clock system and operator that will probably only play a factor in 1% of games? Ok, be my guest. But that should be a state-to-state decision, not a national mandate.

These stories make the news because they are the exception, not the rule. Stall games are not the national crisis that some claim they are.


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JRutledge Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1028644)
We saw the proverbial “this isn’t getting the kids ready for college basketball” quote.

Tell me again the percentage of NFHS basketball players that go on to play college basketball?

You want 100% of schools to pay for a shot clock system and operator that will probably only play a factor in 1% of games? Ok, be my guest. But that should be a state-to-state decision, not a national mandate.

These stories make the news because they are the exception, not the rule. Stall games are not the national crisis that some claim they are.

I totally agree. This style was a choice. The defensive team could have pressured the ball and made the team play some offense.

The funny part is that people think that with a shot clock automatically a team cannot stall to some extent. They can stall in a similar way and take time off the clock. Teams in college do it all the time when they have a certain lead. Obviously, they have to shoot the ball, but just like that is a risk, holding the ball expecting a team to never play defense is also a risk.

I think the shot clock is coming. But it is not going to make the game better. It is just going to make the game rushed in many respects for many teams. So the bad shots we see now, we will see horrible shots with a shot clock.

Peace

ilyazhito Sat Jan 12, 2019 01:58pm

I disagree. I work high school games with a shot clock in DC, and I see a better product than in the non-shot clock high school games I work in VA. The shot clock allows me to more easily break the game down into smaller pieces and concentrate more on calling each piece correctly, it helps me to be more time aware in case a correction needs to be made, and there are fewer deliberate end-of-game fouls in the shot clock contests that I have worked. The shot clock is also a balancer, because the advantage is currently skewed to the offense in terms of dictating the pace of the game in games without a shot clock. With the shot clock, a neutral object dictates the pace of the game, not either team, so you won't have 40+ second possessions that are, in my experience, not usually productive. As an official, shot clocks also simplify other rules (I have a visual reference for 10-second counts, even if I might be required to make a visible count (no requirement in DC), 5-second counts on the dribble mare often eliminated in shot clock games, such as in DC), so I would be on board with it. Yes, there are incompetent tables, both with shot clocks and without shot clocks, but the shot clock will not by itself make or break the quality of the table personnel. Therefore, I believe that the shot clock would be a net positive.

BillyMac Sat Jan 12, 2019 02:18pm

Special Group Of Highly Disciplined, Intelligent, Talented Kids ...
 
While I wouldn't want to work a stall game, I do enjoy observing them.

I've worked with teenagers my entire adult life, as a teacher, a coach, a parent, and an official. It takes a very patient coach, who is good at teaching, and a special group of highly disciplined, intelligent, talented kids to run this stall offense. The coach doesn't just decide a few minutes before the game to use this strategy. He probably prepared for this game for a few practices, if not more. He gave his kids a chance to win within the rules of the game. That's his job. A job well done.

CJP Sat Jan 12, 2019 04:19pm

I witnessed a game like this once. It was very hard to watch. Because there are so little possessions, a mistake by an official is actually game changing. I think there were a few big calls that benefited the stalling team in the game I watched.

The state actually adopted the shot clock the next year and many think it was a result of this game.

As a fan, I paid to watch a basketball game. I don't care who wins most of the time, I just want to watch some ball.

As an official, I hope I never have to be a part of one. I am grateful for the shot clock.

BillyMac Sat Jan 12, 2019 04:24pm

Stall And Win ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CJP (Post 1028657)
As a fan, I paid to watch a basketball game. I don't care who wins most of the time, I just want to watch some ball.

In most games, about half the fans want the stall ball team to win.

CJP Sat Jan 12, 2019 04:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1028658)
In most games, about half the fans want the stall ball team to win.

Actually thinking back on it, it was the opposite in this case. The stalling team was an underdog for once. They were a private school power house. The other team was a rural school (a co-op of schools because the communities are very small). The private schools in North Dakota are not liked much by the rural schools. They have a lot of success and rural folks see the private schools location as a huge advantage because of their location and not belonging to a school district.

bob jenkins Sat Jan 12, 2019 08:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1028640)
From the comments:

Oak ridge sat in a 2-3 zone for the entire first half. They are an unbelievable team that could have easily pressured them out of stall ball but didn't.

So evidently the better team here just stayed in a 2 - 3 zone and allowed the stall.

The official should ask the offense coach how lo9ng he plans to hold the ball. Then, he should ask the defensive coach if it's okay to set the clock to whatever the offensive coach says (e.g., 30 second). then, play on.

No need to stand around and wait for the clock to run down.


5-5-3

crosscountry55 Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1028661)
The official should ask the offense coach how lo9ng he plans to hold the ball. Then, he should ask the defensive coach if it's okay to set the clock to whatever the offensive coach says (e.g., 30 second). then, play on.



No need to stand around and wait for the clock to run down.





5-5-3



Nice idea! Always listen to Bob.


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Bad Zebra Sun Jan 13, 2019 04:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1028647)

I think the shot clock is coming.

Disagree...between the additional expense (it would have to be 100% adoption state wide. That’s a MASSIVE investment in my state) and the heightened need for qualified table personnel, I don’t think it will happen any time soon.

The truth is that “stall ball” is employed ina tiny percentage of games. It only gets discussed (the need for a shot clock) because of sensationalized headlines and social media hype.

BigCat Sun Jan 13, 2019 04:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1028653)
I disagree. I work high school games with a shot clock in DC, and I see a better product than in the non-shot clock high school games I work in VA. The shot clock allows me to more easily break the game down into smaller pieces and concentrate more on calling each piece correctly, it helps me to be more time aware in case a correction needs to be made, and there are fewer deliberate end-of-game fouls in the shot clock contests that I have worked. The shot clock is also a balancer, because the advantage is currently skewed to the offense in terms of dictating the pace of the game in games without a shot clock. With the shot clock, a neutral object dictates the pace of the game, not either team, so you won't have 40+ second possessions that are, in my experience, not usually productive. As an official, shot clocks also simplify other rules (I have a visual reference for 10-second counts, even if I might be required to make a visible count (no requirement in DC), 5-second counts on the dribble mare often eliminated in shot clock games, such as in DC), so I would be on board with it. Yes, there are incompetent tables, both with shot clocks and without shot clocks, but the shot clock will not by itself make or break the quality of the table personnel. Therefore, I believe that the shot clock would be a net positive.

Way too many big words for me in your post....tell it to me like I’m a 6th grader..��. Shot clocks simply encourage more shots.. up and down play. That is/was exciting when it’s done well. Unfortunately, I see teams rush from end to end and it’s turnover to turnover. Bad shot to bad shot. . No real offense run. If my team is truly better than yours I will pressure you everywhere. If your good enough to hold the ball vs my pressure and win 10-4 then u deserve it.


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