Reaching out of your area

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by LRZ

I also disagree with this: " I've been told that it would be more appropriate to let him deal with the consequences of missing a call if he messed it up." The officials are a team, and the team bears the responsibility to get foul calls right. Don't guess, but if 100% sure? If I were your partner, I'd rather you make that call. Maybe I was straight-lined; maybe I was looking up top and could not see lower body contact.

IMO/YMMV.

We are a team, but we are still individuals that have to make individual judgments. You are not being a good teammate if I pass on something that I clearly saw as not needing my whistle. So if you come in and get that and I adamantly disagree, you did not do your teammate very well. And in this case, the official said that he felt the shooter kicked out his leg (been emphasized at multiple levels) and did not feel it was a foul. Now you have told him and everyone that you do not trust him or that you have to come and get other plays that you did not see or were not looking at. I always make it very clear to coaches that there are plays I am not looking at what my partners are looking at. I even tell coaches that my partner will gladly explain things to a coach when they get a chance.

I am also going to say it this way. The higher you go up, the more you will have to realize they will not treat you as a team if the fall out happens. There was a play this past postseason where we had a major screw up in a game that took a team to the State Finals were an official "thought" he saw something and made a call on whether a shot was a 2 or a 3 at a very critical point of the game. He was the C and came across the lane to call a 3 point shot a 2. Then on video, it showed this official who as the C that was coming out of his primary was totally wrong and saw something that was clearly not there (this was a college floor with two 3 point lines). There was one official on the crew that had no idea what happened because he was the lead. He would not have been looking there for a foot on the line near the top of the key. The lead in this play could not give any information and no one expected him to. The talk was about the official the two officials involved, the one that made the call to change the 3 to a 2 and the official that had the primary. Now that play was certainly a play they could come together on because it was only an issue of points. But in a foul situation, you do not have a lot of options to take it back if your partner totally disagrees with you that is in his primary. This was not a rules situation either where we can make sure we are applying the rule properly. This is a foul that you cannot just take back. So you better be right and if you do not "beat the tape" that might be the reason you assignments or further opportunities might be evaluated. So yes we are a team, but when they fire one of you or suspend one of you, they are not going to do that as a team. I can tell you as a college official, I cannot go by "we are a team" mantra and save me from judgment mistakes I make. Just saying, be careful. Was it an ant or an elephant? And we cannot always use the croud reaction as a guage for a good call or not. We can be totally right and still they think we got it wrong.

Peace

[BillyMac]

(Frank Sinatra, 1959)

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Was it an ant or an elephant?

Agree. This isn't written in my pregame guidelines, but I use it all the time.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

(Frank Sinatra, 1959)



Agree. This isn't written in my pregame guidelines, but I use it all the time.

You know this is not in the NF Rulebook or the NCAA Rulebook.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... Was it an ant or an elephant? ...

Originally Posted by BillyMac

(Frank Sinatra, 1959)



Agree. This isn't written in my pregame guidelines, but I use it all the time.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You know this is not in the NF Rulebook or the NCAA Rulebook.

Peace

Now that's funny.

[Raymond]

At the college level, if you are a new or journeyman official you CANNOT do this in front of a veteran. You're going to hear about it, and not in a good way.

There are a lot of dynamics and variables in play as to when it is or isn't appropriate to do this. As described in this situation, I don't think I'm coming that far to get it unless it is the last minute of a close game, I have no doubt it was a foul, and I have the status on that crew and with my supervisor to make that kind of call.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by Raymond

At the college level, if you are a new or journeyman official you CANNOT do this in front of a veteran. You're going to hear about it, and not in a good way.

There are a lot of dynamics and variables in play as to when it is or isn't appropriate to do this. As described in this situation, I don't think I'm coming that far to get it unless it is the last minute of a close game, I have no doubt it was a foul, and I have the status on that crew and with my supervisor to make that kind of call.

Being a veteran does not mean you are always correct or above missing a call.

Man, there are some incredibly big egos the higher up you go. Isn't the goal to get the calls right? If somebody doesn't see something and you do, I have no problem with somebody reaching AS LONG AS there is nothing going on in your PCA and you are right.

I couldn't care less about hearing about it not in a good way. Yelling loudly, or defending your bad call or lack of a call does not make you right or a better official. If your ego is that fragile, then I don't know what to say. (I know the OP is not talking about their self and this isn't directed at them)

I think we all prefer our partners do their jobs and stay in their PCA, but we all know there are times to reach out of your PCA. Sometimes the sea just parts and you can see what your partner cannot. If the game is on the line and you know you are right, get the call and make sure the game is not determined by a missed/wrong call. Just my opinion.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Raymond

At the college level, if you are a new or journeyman official you CANNOT do this in front of a veteran. You're going to hear about it, and not in a good way.

There are a lot of dynamics and variables in play as to when it is or isn't appropriate to do this. As described in this situation, I don't think I'm coming that far to get it unless it is the last minute of a close game, I have no doubt it was a foul, and I have the status on that crew and with my supervisor to make that kind of call.

I'm with you. I'm not touching this one.

An appropriate high-certainty foul to reach for would involve a player throwing an elbow or someone getting pushed or thrown to the ground-violent contact that, if unpenalized, will lead to big problems in your game. A jump shooter getting hit on the arm and going down in the third quarter is not going to lead to a fight if uncalled. You might have an unhappy coach, but let the partner who was right on top of the play deal with that fallout.

"Getting the call right" is all well and good, but to move up you have to learn what to let your partners, especially veterans, live and die with.

You're not going to get a call from the assigner for not coming all the way across the court to bail out your partner. You will get a call from the assigner if you reach that far to get a foul that wasn't there, or you reach that far to get something in front of a veteran that isn't a game-saver.

And for what it's worth, I've gotten more flack for reaching on fouls in high school games than in my college days. Because so many high school guys don't understand the concept of angles and cadence whistles. In my experience high school-only guys are more territorial than college officials.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

Being a veteran does not mean you are always correct or above missing a call.

Man, there are some incredibly big egos the higher up you go. Isn't the goal to get the calls right? If somebody doesn't see something and you do, I have no problem with somebody reaching AS LONG AS there is nothing going on in your PCA and you are right.

I couldn't care less about hearing about it not in a good way. Yelling loudly, or defending your bad call or lack of a call does not make you right or a better official. If your ego is that fragile, then I don't know what to say. (I know the OP is not talking about their self and this isn't directed at them)

....

That's all well and good, but the NCAA officiating world is different than the HS world. I've worked college games with 3 different D1 Final Four officials. With 2 of the 3, it was very clear who was in charge of the game. With the 3rd, he missed an obvious travel that the entire gym, including me, saw. I thought for a millisecond about getting it but chose not to. After the game the observer asked the Final Four official about the play and then moved on. If it had been the other way around, the observer would have asked the Final Four official why he didn't come get it. At the NCAA level, supply exceeds demand, and an official's career can end or get severely damaged if he steps on the wrong toes or gives a bad impression to an observer. Like it or not, that is the reality of the situation. I've had more than one college supervisor say, for everyone to hear, that their veterans and observers can make or break your career.

There are all kinds of things I can get away with at the HS level that would get me fired from a college conference.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by SC Official

I'm with you. I'm not touching this one.

An appropriate high-certainty foul to reach for would involve a player throwing an elbow or someone getting pushed or thrown to the ground-violent contact that, if unpenalized, will lead to big problems in your game. A jump shooter getting hit on the arm and going down in the third quarter is not going to lead to a fight if uncalled. You might have an unhappy coach, but let the partner who was right on top of the play deal with that fallout.

"Getting the call right" is all well and good, but to move up you have to learn what to let your partners, especially veterans, live and die with.

You're not going to get a call from the assigner for not coming all the way across the court to bail out your partner. You will get a call from the assigner if you reach that far to get a foul that wasn't there, or you reach that far to get something in front of a veteran that isn't a game-saver.

And for what it's worth, I've gotten more flack for reaching on fouls in high school games than in my college days. Because so many high school guys don't understand the concept of angles and cadence whistles. In my experience high school-only guys are more territorial than college officials.

Your answer/opinion is why I'm glad we aren't at the mercy of one master assignor and don't use them in my area. Our individual schools/ADs do the hiring.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We are a team, but we are still individuals that have to make individual judgments. You are not being a good teammate if I pass on something that I clearly saw as not needing my whistle. So if you come in and get that and I adamantly disagree, you did not do your teammate very well. And in this case, the official said that he felt the shooter kicked out his leg (been emphasized at multiple levels) and did not feel it was a foul. Now you have told him and everyone that you do not trust him or that you have to come and get other plays that you did not see or were not looking at. I always make it very clear to coaches that there are plays I am not looking at what my partners are looking at. I even tell coaches that my partner will gladly explain things to a coach when they get a chance.

I am also going to say it this way. The higher you go up, the more you will have to realize they will not treat you as a team if the fall out happens. There was a play this past postseason where we had a major screw up in a game that took a team to the State Finals were an official "thought" he saw something and made a call on whether a shot was a 2 or a 3 at a very critical point of the game. He was the C and came across the lane to call a 3 point shot a 2. Then on video, it showed this official who as the C that was coming out of his primary was totally wrong and saw something that was clearly not there (this was a college floor with two 3 point lines). There was one official on the crew that had no idea what happened because he was the lead. He would not have been looking there for a foot on the line near the top of the key. The lead in this play could not give any information and no one expected him to. The talk was about the official the two officials involved, the one that made the call to change the 3 to a 2 and the official that had the primary. Now that play was certainly a play they could come together on because it was only an issue of points. But in a foul situation, you do not have a lot of options to take it back if your partner totally disagrees with you that is in his primary. This was not a rules situation either where we can make sure we are applying the rule properly. This is a foul that you cannot just take back. So you better be right and if you do not "beat the tape" that might be the reason you assignments or further opportunities might be evaluated. So yes we are a team, but when they fire one of you or suspend one of you, they are not going to do that as a team. I can tell you as a college official, I cannot go by "we are a team" mantra and save me from judgment mistakes I make. Just saying, be careful. Was it an ant or an elephant? And we cannot always use the croud reaction as a guage for a good call or not. We can be totally right and still they think we got it wrong.

Peace

I couldn't have said it better.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by SC Official

I couldn't have said it better.

Very well said, but I think there are exceptions and things happen in games. I don't think any of us are going out of our way to make a call in front of our partners.

I believe the point of this topic was an obvious missed call. I don't think any of us will reach out of our PCA very often and try hard as hell not to.

I think we all agree that you need to stay in your PCA 99.9% of the time. I don't mind the .1% where it happens. Sounds like some guys at some levels have a hard time with it.