Reaching out of your area

[UNIgiantslayers]

I can get behind that. I'd be more interested in what the video showed. If it showed I was right, I would call that a crew saver if it awards a team at (a possible) 3 points. If not, I'm fishing outside of my pond. Either way, I'm going to be 100% on one that I'm going across the court for. There won't be any doubt in my mind.

[LRZ]

To some extent, this depends on who your partners are (familiar or never worked together before?) and what you pre-game. I only work 2-ref, and my pre-game always includes this: "I'm not territorial, so if you clearly see a foul in my primary, call it. Let's get it right."

I also disagree with this: " I've been told that it would be more appropriate to let him deal with the consequences of missing a call if he messed it up." The officials are a team, and the team bears the responsibility to get foul calls right. Don't guess, but if 100% sure? If I were your partner, I'd rather you make that call. Maybe I was straight-lined; maybe I was looking up top and could not see lower body contact.

IMO/YMMV.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by LRZ

I also disagree with this: " I've been told that it would be more appropriate to let him deal with the consequences of missing a call if he messed it up." The officials are a team, and the team bears the responsibility to get foul calls right. Don't guess, but if 100% sure? If I were your partner, I'd rather you make that call. Maybe I was straight-lined; maybe I was looking up top and could not see lower body contact.

IMO/YMMV.

We are a team, but we are still individuals that have to make individual judgments. You are not being a good teammate if I pass on something that I clearly saw as not needing my whistle. So if you come in and get that and I adamantly disagree, you did not do your teammate very well. And in this case, the official said that he felt the shooter kicked out his leg (been emphasized at multiple levels) and did not feel it was a foul. Now you have told him and everyone that you do not trust him or that you have to come and get other plays that you did not see or were not looking at. I always make it very clear to coaches that there are plays I am not looking at what my partners are looking at. I even tell coaches that my partner will gladly explain things to a coach when they get a chance.

I am also going to say it this way. The higher you go up, the more you will have to realize they will not treat you as a team if the fall out happens. There was a play this past postseason where we had a major screw up in a game that took a team to the State Finals were an official "thought" he saw something and made a call on whether a shot was a 2 or a 3 at a very critical point of the game. He was the C and came across the lane to call a 3 point shot a 2. Then on video, it showed this official who as the C that was coming out of his primary was totally wrong and saw something that was clearly not there (this was a college floor with two 3 point lines). There was one official on the crew that had no idea what happened because he was the lead. He would not have been looking there for a foot on the line near the top of the key. The lead in this play could not give any information and no one expected him to. The talk was about the official the two officials involved, the one that made the call to change the 3 to a 2 and the official that had the primary. Now that play was certainly a play they could come together on because it was only an issue of points. But in a foul situation, you do not have a lot of options to take it back if your partner totally disagrees with you that is in his primary. This was not a rules situation either where we can make sure we are applying the rule properly. This is a foul that you cannot just take back. So you better be right and if you do not "beat the tape" that might be the reason you assignments or further opportunities might be evaluated. So yes we are a team, but when they fire one of you or suspend one of you, they are not going to do that as a team. I can tell you as a college official, I cannot go by "we are a team" mantra and save me from judgment mistakes I make. Just saying, be careful. Was it an ant or an elephant? And we cannot always use the croud reaction as a guage for a good call or not. We can be totally right and still they think we got it wrong.

Peace

[BillyMac]

(Frank Sinatra, 1959)

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Was it an ant or an elephant?

Agree. This isn't written in my pregame guidelines, but I use it all the time.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

(Frank Sinatra, 1959)



Agree. This isn't written in my pregame guidelines, but I use it all the time.

You know this is not in the NF Rulebook or the NCAA Rulebook.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... Was it an ant or an elephant? ...

Originally Posted by BillyMac

(Frank Sinatra, 1959)



Agree. This isn't written in my pregame guidelines, but I use it all the time.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You know this is not in the NF Rulebook or the NCAA Rulebook.

Peace

Now that's funny.

[Raymond]

At the college level, if you are a new or journeyman official you CANNOT do this in front of a veteran. You're going to hear about it, and not in a good way.

There are a lot of dynamics and variables in play as to when it is or isn't appropriate to do this. As described in this situation, I don't think I'm coming that far to get it unless it is the last minute of a close game, I have no doubt it was a foul, and I have the status on that crew and with my supervisor to make that kind of call.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We are a team, but we are still individuals that have to make individual judgments. You are not being a good teammate if I pass on something that I clearly saw as not needing my whistle. So if you come in and get that and I adamantly disagree, you did not do your teammate very well. And in this case, the official said that he felt the shooter kicked out his leg (been emphasized at multiple levels) and did not feel it was a foul. Now you have told him and everyone that you do not trust him or that you have to come and get other plays that you did not see or were not looking at. I always make it very clear to coaches that there are plays I am not looking at what my partners are looking at. I even tell coaches that my partner will gladly explain things to a coach when they get a chance.

I am also going to say it this way. The higher you go up, the more you will have to realize they will not treat you as a team if the fall out happens. There was a play this past postseason where we had a major screw up in a game that took a team to the State Finals were an official "thought" he saw something and made a call on whether a shot was a 2 or a 3 at a very critical point of the game. He was the C and came across the lane to call a 3 point shot a 2. Then on video, it showed this official who as the C that was coming out of his primary was totally wrong and saw something that was clearly not there (this was a college floor with two 3 point lines). There was one official on the crew that had no idea what happened because he was the lead. He would not have been looking there for a foot on the line near the top of the key. The lead in this play could not give any information and no one expected him to. The talk was about the official the two officials involved, the one that made the call to change the 3 to a 2 and the official that had the primary. Now that play was certainly a play they could come together on because it was only an issue of points. But in a foul situation, you do not have a lot of options to take it back if your partner totally disagrees with you that is in his primary. This was not a rules situation either where we can make sure we are applying the rule properly. This is a foul that you cannot just take back. So you better be right and if you do not "beat the tape" that might be the reason you assignments or further opportunities might be evaluated. So yes we are a team, but when they fire one of you or suspend one of you, they are not going to do that as a team. I can tell you as a college official, I cannot go by "we are a team" mantra and save me from judgment mistakes I make. Just saying, be careful. Was it an ant or an elephant? And we cannot always use the croud reaction as a guage for a good call or not. We can be totally right and still they think we got it wrong.

Peace

I couldn't have said it better.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by SC Official

I couldn't have said it better.

Very well said, but I think there are exceptions and things happen in games. I don't think any of us are going out of our way to make a call in front of our partners.

I believe the point of this topic was an obvious missed call. I don't think any of us will reach out of our PCA very often and try hard as hell not to.

I think we all agree that you need to stay in your PCA 99.9% of the time. I don't mind the .1% where it happens. Sounds like some guys at some levels have a hard time with it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

Isn't getting it right more important that someone only fishing in their own pond?

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

I'm fishing outside of my pond.

Brings to mind Lake Webster, right across the Massachusetts state line, otherwise known by its Native American Algonquian name, Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubuna. Translation is, "You fish on your side, I'll fish on my side, and no one shall fish in the middle".