Reaching out of your area

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by Raymond

That's all well and good, but the NCAA officiating world is different than the HS world. I've worked college games with 3 different D1 Final Four officials. With 2 of the 3, it was very clear who was in charge of the game. With the 3rd, he missed an obvious travel that the entire gym, including me, saw. I thought for a millisecond about getting it but chose not to. After the game the observer asked the Final Four official about the play and then moved on. If it had been the other way around, the observer would have asked the Final Four official why he didn't come get it. At the NCAA level, supply exceeds demand, and an official's career can end or get severely damaged if he steps on the wrong toes or gives a bad impression to an observer. Like it or not, that is the reality of the situation. I've had more than one college supervisor say, for everyone to hear, that their veterans and observers can make or break your career.

There are all kinds of things I can get away with at the HS level that would get me fired from a college conference.

Interesting. Makes me glad I have no time and interest in moving up in the college world. Sounds like a lot of egos and playing the "game".

I think it's sad that guys have to be afraid of stepping on egos/toes when a respected official screws something up. Everybody screws up and it's ok to admit when you do. If a member of your crew can get it right, I don't see the big deal.

I've seen plenty of college guys working games that mess things up. Things all of us have messed up in our careers. They are not gods and are not perfect. They have just played the "game" long enough.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

Interesting. Makes me glad I have no time and interest in moving up in the college world. Sounds like a lot of egos and playing the "game".

I think it's sad that guys have to be afraid of stepping on egos/toes when a respected official screws something up. Everybody screws up and it's ok to admit when you do. If a member of your crew can get it right, I don't see the big deal.

I've seen plenty of college guys working games that mess things up. Things all of us have messed up in our careers. They are not gods and are not perfect. They have just played the "game" long enough.

Well, I do the exact same thing at the high school level. I am often working with two people that I do not work with on a regular basis. The reason I might continue to work is that I am a good partner and I do not go around assuming I have to call the game for my partners. It is one thing to call something in a dual area, but not in someone's area where they clearly have a look at a play. If someone makes a call like this and the video does not back them up, they might not work the kind of games they wish. I have worked for many assignors some pretty big games and one of the reasons that keep happening is because I am able to take care of my business and my partners are working those games for the very same reason.

Sorry but in this example, the official called something way out of his area and his partner that was on top of the player felt the call was not warranted. Guess what that official might say if asked about that play to a supervisor if asked? He might not directly throw his partner under the bus, but he might just stay what he saw. That is how you get into trouble. And a good supervisor will not only ask, but see the video if that is brought to their attention.

Guess who also asks around about particular officials? You guessed it, fellow officials get asked often about what they think of partners or might be a clinician at a camp and also give reasons for why this person should be hired or moved up. Things like this just at camp might tell me you are not ready to work a certain level. And I do not assign anything, but my opinion is often requested by those that do.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

It is one thing to help in your secondary area when you believe that your partner got blocked out or couldn’t see a clear infraction due to the angles of the players, but what one should avoid is over-riding another official’s judgment on a play which is observed. To be more specific, I am talking about a play in which there is contact which two officials observe. If the officials have different thresholds for what constitutes a foul, one may determine that no foul occurred and no whistle is the correct decision while the other will blow and make a call also believing that he is correct. This type of play is why I cannot agree with the “get it right” camp. These situations should be left to the primary official.

[ballgame99]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It is one thing to help in your secondary area when you believe that your partner got blocked out or couldn’t see a clear infraction due to the angles of the players, but what one should avoid is over-riding another official’s judgment on a play which is observed. To be more specific, I am talking about a play in which there is contact which two officials observe. If the officials have different thresholds for what constitutes a foul, one may determine that no foul occurred and no whistle is the correct decision while the other will blow and make a call also believing that he is correct. This type of play is why I cannot agree with the “get it right” camp. These situations should be left to the primary official.

I agree 100% with this and subscribe to this philosophy fully. The play in question was well above this level of judgement, I just don't think my partner had the angle to see the contact that I saw. Or based on his comments he was looking low when the contact was high. But I have had partners call an "over the back" right in my kitchen from across the lane when I am looking directly at the play. That should be avoided at all costs.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

I agree 100% with this and subscribe to this philosophy fully. The play in question was well above this level of judgement, I just don't think my partner had the angle to see the contact that I saw. Or based on his comments he was looking low when the contact was high. But I have had partners call an "over the back" right in my kitchen from across the lane when I am looking directly at the play. That should be avoided at all costs.

But the play you described was in his lap. And if you stick your leg out to create contact, I do not care what other contact took place, I am probably passing on that play too. There is a big emphasis at many levels not to call the offensive initiated contact. He told you that he saw the contact below and you basically are saying he did not see what you saw, so you called it anyway. That is where I would be mad as an official, not because you felt you saw something. He did not say he was screened or surprised by the contact.

Peace

[Pantherdreams]

If you are going to call into my my area there had better be some conditions:

1) THere better be a lot going on and you legitimately believe I was screened out or missed something.

2) It had better not be on the player/players I am very clearly watching and making decisions about.

3) You had better be getting something dirty/excessive if its a foul anything marginal is not worth you coming into my area on stuff we can no call.

If you don' t have 2 of those conditions met we are probably going to talk about why you assumed my judgement wasn't as valid as yours.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

If you are going to call into my my area there had better be some conditions:

1) THere better be a lot going on and you legitimately believe I was screened out or missed something.

2) It had better not be on the player/players I am very clearly watching and making decisions about.

3) You had better be getting something dirty/excessive if its a foul anything marginal is not worth you coming into my area on stuff we can no call.

If you don' t have 2 of those conditions met we are probably going to talk about why you assumed my judgement wasn't as valid as yours.

Lighten up Francis!

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well, I do the exact same thing at the high school level. I am often working with two people that I do not work with on a regular basis. The reason I might continue to work is that I am a good partner and I do not go around assuming I have to call the game for my partners. It is one thing to call something in a dual area, but not in someone's area where they clearly have a look at a play. If someone makes a call like this and the video does not back them up, they might not work the kind of games they wish. I have worked for many assignors some pretty big games and one of the reasons that keep happening is because I am able to take care of my business and my partners are working those games for the very same reason.

Sorry but in this example, the official called something way out of his area and his partner that was on top of the player felt the call was not warranted. Guess what that official might say if asked about that play to a supervisor if asked? He might not directly throw his partner under the bus, but he might just stay what he saw. That is how you get into trouble. And a good supervisor will not only ask, but see the video if that is brought to their attention.

Guess who also asks around about particular officials? You guessed it, fellow officials get asked often about what they think of partners or might be a clinician at a camp and also give reasons for why this person should be hired or moved up. Things like this just at camp might tell me you are not ready to work a certain level. And I do not assign anything, but my opinion is often requested by those that do.

Peace

I hear what you are saying and I agree with you. You obviously know quite a bit about officiating. I guess the point I'm making is, and I"m not being clear, is that I'm not reaching out of my PCA unless I know 100% what I saw. No doubt whatsoever. I don't think any of you guys are reaching either unless you are 100% correct. Sounds like some of you will never reach.

For me it's the 0.1% of the time that this can happen. I believe in crew savers from time to time. We all get blocked out from time to time or just don't see something for whatever reason. If somebody is 100% right and makes a call in my area, I'm fine with it. I will do the same and hope they are fine with it as I know I only did it because I am 100% right. Any doubt in my mind and I'm not doing it.