Reaching out of your area

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

(Frank Sinatra, 1959)



Agree. This isn't written in my pregame guidelines, but I use it all the time.

You know this is not in the NF Rulebook or the NCAA Rulebook.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... Was it an ant or an elephant? ...

Originally Posted by BillyMac

(Frank Sinatra, 1959)



Agree. This isn't written in my pregame guidelines, but I use it all the time.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You know this is not in the NF Rulebook or the NCAA Rulebook.

Peace

Now that's funny.

[Raymond]

At the college level, if you are a new or journeyman official you CANNOT do this in front of a veteran. You're going to hear about it, and not in a good way.

There are a lot of dynamics and variables in play as to when it is or isn't appropriate to do this. As described in this situation, I don't think I'm coming that far to get it unless it is the last minute of a close game, I have no doubt it was a foul, and I have the status on that crew and with my supervisor to make that kind of call.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by Raymond

At the college level, if you are a new or journeyman official you CANNOT do this in front of a veteran. You're going to hear about it, and not in a good way.

There are a lot of dynamics and variables in play as to when it is or isn't appropriate to do this. As described in this situation, I don't think I'm coming that far to get it unless it is the last minute of a close game, I have no doubt it was a foul, and I have the status on that crew and with my supervisor to make that kind of call.

Being a veteran does not mean you are always correct or above missing a call.

Man, there are some incredibly big egos the higher up you go. Isn't the goal to get the calls right? If somebody doesn't see something and you do, I have no problem with somebody reaching AS LONG AS there is nothing going on in your PCA and you are right.

I couldn't care less about hearing about it not in a good way. Yelling loudly, or defending your bad call or lack of a call does not make you right or a better official. If your ego is that fragile, then I don't know what to say. (I know the OP is not talking about their self and this isn't directed at them)

I think we all prefer our partners do their jobs and stay in their PCA, but we all know there are times to reach out of your PCA. Sometimes the sea just parts and you can see what your partner cannot. If the game is on the line and you know you are right, get the call and make sure the game is not determined by a missed/wrong call. Just my opinion.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Raymond

At the college level, if you are a new or journeyman official you CANNOT do this in front of a veteran. You're going to hear about it, and not in a good way.

There are a lot of dynamics and variables in play as to when it is or isn't appropriate to do this. As described in this situation, I don't think I'm coming that far to get it unless it is the last minute of a close game, I have no doubt it was a foul, and I have the status on that crew and with my supervisor to make that kind of call.

I'm with you. I'm not touching this one.

An appropriate high-certainty foul to reach for would involve a player throwing an elbow or someone getting pushed or thrown to the ground-violent contact that, if unpenalized, will lead to big problems in your game. A jump shooter getting hit on the arm and going down in the third quarter is not going to lead to a fight if uncalled. You might have an unhappy coach, but let the partner who was right on top of the play deal with that fallout.

"Getting the call right" is all well and good, but to move up you have to learn what to let your partners, especially veterans, live and die with.

You're not going to get a call from the assigner for not coming all the way across the court to bail out your partner. You will get a call from the assigner if you reach that far to get a foul that wasn't there, or you reach that far to get something in front of a veteran that isn't a game-saver.

And for what it's worth, I've gotten more flack for reaching on fouls in high school games than in my college days. Because so many high school guys don't understand the concept of angles and cadence whistles. In my experience high school-only guys are more territorial than college officials.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

Being a veteran does not mean you are always correct or above missing a call.

Man, there are some incredibly big egos the higher up you go. Isn't the goal to get the calls right? If somebody doesn't see something and you do, I have no problem with somebody reaching AS LONG AS there is nothing going on in your PCA and you are right.

I couldn't care less about hearing about it not in a good way. Yelling loudly, or defending your bad call or lack of a call does not make you right or a better official. If your ego is that fragile, then I don't know what to say. (I know the OP is not talking about their self and this isn't directed at them)

....

That's all well and good, but the NCAA officiating world is different than the HS world. I've worked college games with 3 different D1 Final Four officials. With 2 of the 3, it was very clear who was in charge of the game. With the 3rd, he missed an obvious travel that the entire gym, including me, saw. I thought for a millisecond about getting it but chose not to. After the game the observer asked the Final Four official about the play and then moved on. If it had been the other way around, the observer would have asked the Final Four official why he didn't come get it. At the NCAA level, supply exceeds demand, and an official's career can end or get severely damaged if he steps on the wrong toes or gives a bad impression to an observer. Like it or not, that is the reality of the situation. I've had more than one college supervisor say, for everyone to hear, that their veterans and observers can make or break your career.

There are all kinds of things I can get away with at the HS level that would get me fired from a college conference.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by Raymond

That's all well and good, but the NCAA officiating world is different than the HS world. I've worked college games with 3 different D1 Final Four officials. With 2 of the 3, it was very clear who was in charge of the game. With the 3rd, he missed an obvious travel that the entire gym, including me, saw. I thought for a millisecond about getting it but chose not to. After the game the observer asked the Final Four official about the play and then moved on. If it had been the other way around, the observer would have asked the Final Four official why he didn't come get it. At the NCAA level, supply exceeds demand, and an official's career can end or get severely damaged if he steps on the wrong toes or gives a bad impression to an observer. Like it or not, that is the reality of the situation. I've had more than one college supervisor say, for everyone to hear, that their veterans and observers can make or break your career.

There are all kinds of things I can get away with at the HS level that would get me fired from a college conference.

Interesting. Makes me glad I have no time and interest in moving up in the college world. Sounds like a lot of egos and playing the "game".

I think it's sad that guys have to be afraid of stepping on egos/toes when a respected official screws something up. Everybody screws up and it's ok to admit when you do. If a member of your crew can get it right, I don't see the big deal.

I've seen plenty of college guys working games that mess things up. Things all of us have messed up in our careers. They are not gods and are not perfect. They have just played the "game" long enough.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

Interesting. Makes me glad I have no time and interest in moving up in the college world. Sounds like a lot of egos and playing the "game".

I think it's sad that guys have to be afraid of stepping on egos/toes when a respected official screws something up. Everybody screws up and it's ok to admit when you do. If a member of your crew can get it right, I don't see the big deal.

I've seen plenty of college guys working games that mess things up. Things all of us have messed up in our careers. They are not gods and are not perfect. They have just played the "game" long enough.

Well, I do the exact same thing at the high school level. I am often working with two people that I do not work with on a regular basis. The reason I might continue to work is that I am a good partner and I do not go around assuming I have to call the game for my partners. It is one thing to call something in a dual area, but not in someone's area where they clearly have a look at a play. If someone makes a call like this and the video does not back them up, they might not work the kind of games they wish. I have worked for many assignors some pretty big games and one of the reasons that keep happening is because I am able to take care of my business and my partners are working those games for the very same reason.

Sorry but in this example, the official called something way out of his area and his partner that was on top of the player felt the call was not warranted. Guess what that official might say if asked about that play to a supervisor if asked? He might not directly throw his partner under the bus, but he might just stay what he saw. That is how you get into trouble. And a good supervisor will not only ask, but see the video if that is brought to their attention.

Guess who also asks around about particular officials? You guessed it, fellow officials get asked often about what they think of partners or might be a clinician at a camp and also give reasons for why this person should be hired or moved up. Things like this just at camp might tell me you are not ready to work a certain level. And I do not assign anything, but my opinion is often requested by those that do.

Peace

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by SC Official

I'm with you. I'm not touching this one.

An appropriate high-certainty foul to reach for would involve a player throwing an elbow or someone getting pushed or thrown to the ground-violent contact that, if unpenalized, will lead to big problems in your game. A jump shooter getting hit on the arm and going down in the third quarter is not going to lead to a fight if uncalled. You might have an unhappy coach, but let the partner who was right on top of the play deal with that fallout.

"Getting the call right" is all well and good, but to move up you have to learn what to let your partners, especially veterans, live and die with.

You're not going to get a call from the assigner for not coming all the way across the court to bail out your partner. You will get a call from the assigner if you reach that far to get a foul that wasn't there, or you reach that far to get something in front of a veteran that isn't a game-saver.

And for what it's worth, I've gotten more flack for reaching on fouls in high school games than in my college days. Because so many high school guys don't understand the concept of angles and cadence whistles. In my experience high school-only guys are more territorial than college officials.

Your answer/opinion is why I'm glad we aren't at the mercy of one master assignor and don't use them in my area. Our individual schools/ADs do the hiring.