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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 09, 2019, 03:29pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
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At the college level, if you are a new or journeyman official you CANNOT do this in front of a veteran. You're going to hear about it, and not in a good way.

There are a lot of dynamics and variables in play as to when it is or isn't appropriate to do this. As described in this situation, I don't think I'm coming that far to get it unless it is the last minute of a close game, I have no doubt it was a foul, and I have the status on that crew and with my supervisor to make that kind of call.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 09, 2019, 05:02pm
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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
At the college level, if you are a new or journeyman official you CANNOT do this in front of a veteran. You're going to hear about it, and not in a good way.

There are a lot of dynamics and variables in play as to when it is or isn't appropriate to do this. As described in this situation, I don't think I'm coming that far to get it unless it is the last minute of a close game, I have no doubt it was a foul, and I have the status on that crew and with my supervisor to make that kind of call.
Being a veteran does not mean you are always correct or above missing a call.

Man, there are some incredibly big egos the higher up you go. Isn't the goal to get the calls right? If somebody doesn't see something and you do, I have no problem with somebody reaching AS LONG AS there is nothing going on in your PCA and you are right.

I couldn't care less about hearing about it not in a good way. Yelling loudly, or defending your bad call or lack of a call does not make you right or a better official. If your ego is that fragile, then I don't know what to say. (I know the OP is not talking about their self and this isn't directed at them)

I think we all prefer our partners do their jobs and stay in their PCA, but we all know there are times to reach out of your PCA. Sometimes the sea just parts and you can see what your partner cannot. If the game is on the line and you know you are right, get the call and make sure the game is not determined by a missed/wrong call. Just my opinion.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 09, 2019, 05:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
At the college level, if you are a new or journeyman official you CANNOT do this in front of a veteran. You're going to hear about it, and not in a good way.

There are a lot of dynamics and variables in play as to when it is or isn't appropriate to do this. As described in this situation, I don't think I'm coming that far to get it unless it is the last minute of a close game, I have no doubt it was a foul, and I have the status on that crew and with my supervisor to make that kind of call.
I'm with you. I'm not touching this one.

An appropriate high-certainty foul to reach for would involve a player throwing an elbow or someone getting pushed or thrown to the ground-violent contact that, if unpenalized, will lead to big problems in your game. A jump shooter getting hit on the arm and going down in the third quarter is not going to lead to a fight if uncalled. You might have an unhappy coach, but let the partner who was right on top of the play deal with that fallout.

"Getting the call right" is all well and good, but to move up you have to learn what to let your partners, especially veterans, live and die with.

You're not going to get a call from the assigner for not coming all the way across the court to bail out your partner. You will get a call from the assigner if you reach that far to get a foul that wasn't there, or you reach that far to get something in front of a veteran that isn't a game-saver.

And for what it's worth, I've gotten more flack for reaching on fouls in high school games than in my college days. Because so many high school guys don't understand the concept of angles and cadence whistles. In my experience high school-only guys are more territorial than college officials.

Last edited by SC Official; Wed Jan 09, 2019 at 05:14pm.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 09, 2019, 05:17pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
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Originally Posted by SD Referee View Post
Being a veteran does not mean you are always correct or above missing a call.

Man, there are some incredibly big egos the higher up you go. Isn't the goal to get the calls right? If somebody doesn't see something and you do, I have no problem with somebody reaching AS LONG AS there is nothing going on in your PCA and you are right.

I couldn't care less about hearing about it not in a good way. Yelling loudly, or defending your bad call or lack of a call does not make you right or a better official. If your ego is that fragile, then I don't know what to say. (I know the OP is not talking about their self and this isn't directed at them)

....
That's all well and good, but the NCAA officiating world is different than the HS world. I've worked college games with 3 different D1 Final Four officials. With 2 of the 3, it was very clear who was in charge of the game. With the 3rd, he missed an obvious travel that the entire gym, including me, saw. I thought for a millisecond about getting it but chose not to. After the game the observer asked the Final Four official about the play and then moved on. If it had been the other way around, the observer would have asked the Final Four official why he didn't come get it. At the NCAA level, supply exceeds demand, and an official's career can end or get severely damaged if he steps on the wrong toes or gives a bad impression to an observer. Like it or not, that is the reality of the situation. I've had more than one college supervisor say, for everyone to hear, that their veterans and observers can make or break your career.

There are all kinds of things I can get away with at the HS level that would get me fired from a college conference.
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Last edited by Raymond; Wed Jan 09, 2019 at 05:19pm.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 09, 2019, 05:18pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
We are a team, but we are still individuals that have to make individual judgments. You are not being a good teammate if I pass on something that I clearly saw as not needing my whistle. So if you come in and get that and I adamantly disagree, you did not do your teammate very well. And in this case, the official said that he felt the shooter kicked out his leg (been emphasized at multiple levels) and did not feel it was a foul. Now you have told him and everyone that you do not trust him or that you have to come and get other plays that you did not see or were not looking at. I always make it very clear to coaches that there are plays I am not looking at what my partners are looking at. I even tell coaches that my partner will gladly explain things to a coach when they get a chance.

I am also going to say it this way. The higher you go up, the more you will have to realize they will not treat you as a team if the fall out happens. There was a play this past postseason where we had a major screw up in a game that took a team to the State Finals were an official "thought" he saw something and made a call on whether a shot was a 2 or a 3 at a very critical point of the game. He was the C and came across the lane to call a 3 point shot a 2. Then on video, it showed this official who as the C that was coming out of his primary was totally wrong and saw something that was clearly not there (this was a college floor with two 3 point lines). There was one official on the crew that had no idea what happened because he was the lead. He would not have been looking there for a foot on the line near the top of the key. The lead in this play could not give any information and no one expected him to. The talk was about the official the two officials involved, the one that made the call to change the 3 to a 2 and the official that had the primary. Now that play was certainly a play they could come together on because it was only an issue of points. But in a foul situation, you do not have a lot of options to take it back if your partner totally disagrees with you that is in his primary. This was not a rules situation either where we can make sure we are applying the rule properly. This is a foul that you cannot just take back. So you better be right and if you do not "beat the tape" that might be the reason you assignments or further opportunities might be evaluated. So yes we are a team, but when they fire one of you or suspend one of you, they are not going to do that as a team. I can tell you as a college official, I cannot go by "we are a team" mantra and save me from judgment mistakes I make. Just saying, be careful. Was it an ant or an elephant? And we cannot always use the croud reaction as a guage for a good call or not. We can be totally right and still they think we got it wrong.

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I couldn't have said it better.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 09, 2019, 05:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
I'm with you. I'm not touching this one.

An appropriate high-certainty foul to reach for would involve a player throwing an elbow or someone getting pushed or thrown to the ground-violent contact that, if unpenalized, will lead to big problems in your game. A jump shooter getting hit on the arm and going down in the third quarter is not going to lead to a fight if uncalled. You might have an unhappy coach, but let the partner who was right on top of the play deal with that fallout.

"Getting the call right" is all well and good, but to move up you have to learn what to let your partners, especially veterans, live and die with.

You're not going to get a call from the assigner for not coming all the way across the court to bail out your partner. You will get a call from the assigner if you reach that far to get a foul that wasn't there, or you reach that far to get something in front of a veteran that isn't a game-saver.

And for what it's worth, I've gotten more flack for reaching on fouls in high school games than in my college days. Because so many high school guys don't understand the concept of angles and cadence whistles. In my experience high school-only guys are more territorial than college officials.
Your answer/opinion is why I'm glad we aren't at the mercy of one master assignor and don't use them in my area. Our individual schools/ADs do the hiring.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 09, 2019, 05:38pm
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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
That's all well and good, but the NCAA officiating world is different than the HS world. I've worked college games with 3 different D1 Final Four officials. With 2 of the 3, it was very clear who was in charge of the game. With the 3rd, he missed an obvious travel that the entire gym, including me, saw. I thought for a millisecond about getting it but chose not to. After the game the observer asked the Final Four official about the play and then moved on. If it had been the other way around, the observer would have asked the Final Four official why he didn't come get it. At the NCAA level, supply exceeds demand, and an official's career can end or get severely damaged if he steps on the wrong toes or gives a bad impression to an observer. Like it or not, that is the reality of the situation. I've had more than one college supervisor say, for everyone to hear, that their veterans and observers can make or break your career.

There are all kinds of things I can get away with at the HS level that would get me fired from a college conference.
Interesting. Makes me glad I have no time and interest in moving up in the college world. Sounds like a lot of egos and playing the "game".

I think it's sad that guys have to be afraid of stepping on egos/toes when a respected official screws something up. Everybody screws up and it's ok to admit when you do. If a member of your crew can get it right, I don't see the big deal.

I've seen plenty of college guys working games that mess things up. Things all of us have messed up in our careers. They are not gods and are not perfect. They have just played the "game" long enough.

Last edited by SD Referee; Wed Jan 09, 2019 at 05:42pm.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 09, 2019, 05:41pm
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
I couldn't have said it better.
Very well said, but I think there are exceptions and things happen in games. I don't think any of us are going out of our way to make a call in front of our partners.

I believe the point of this topic was an obvious missed call. I don't think any of us will reach out of our PCA very often and try hard as hell not to.

I think we all agree that you need to stay in your PCA 99.9% of the time. I don't mind the .1% where it happens. Sounds like some guys at some levels have a hard time with it.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 09, 2019, 07:35pm
CJP CJP is offline
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Originally Posted by ballgame99 View Post
When is it appropriate to reach out of your area? Does it have to be a flagrant or technical foul situation? Am I the worst partner ever? I've always read on here that you don't come that far out of your PCA unless it is a "crew saver". I felt like this fit the bill.
I have had partners call fouls and violations in my primary area and I would say they were wrong most of the time. This does not include the times where primary coverage overlaps (dribble drive) but a clear case of me thinking "why is he even looking here". In most cases, my partner was absolutely sure the call was correct.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 09, 2019, 07:46pm
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Originally Posted by ballgame99 View Post
Last night I am C, not much going on in my PCA, last second shot at the end of the 3rd quarter, 3 point shot goes up just below the FT line extended, which just happened to be directly across the court from me and my line of sight. (IE I have a great angle). I take a glance at it. I see the defender CLEARLY foul the shooter across the arm. I KNOW this is a foul, but I also know this is not my call. I wait, expecting a whistle from the trail, shooter comes all the way down, no whistle from Trail... I blow. Neither coach says a word, not even a groan from the crowd. Everyone saw this foul. Coach of the shooter actually commented that this was a great call (because he knew it wasn't my call to make but I did anyway).

Needless to say my partner wasn't happy.

When is it appropriate to reach out of your area? Does it have to be a flagrant or technical foul situation? Am I the worst partner ever? I've always read on here that you don't come that far out of your PCA unless it is a "crew saver". I felt like this fit the bill.
I could have used you on my game Monday. I had a play in my primary (3-point shot from trail, more or less at the FT-line extended) where the shot came off really odd. I, however, just did not see any contact. I didn't know if the shooter muffed it as he went up or what. My partners probably didn't seen anything they could have helped with but if they had, I would have been fine with the help. At halftime, I asked the crew waiting for the next game what happened (they were sitting behind the C) and they told me he was definitely fouled and told me where/how. It was a bit unusual, but it should have been a foul. I just missed it. Luckily, the team that was shooting was up by a bunch and was going to win going away so I didn't catch any grief over it.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 10, 2019, 12:24am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Originally Posted by SD Referee View Post
Interesting. Makes me glad I have no time and interest in moving up in the college world. Sounds like a lot of egos and playing the "game".

I think it's sad that guys have to be afraid of stepping on egos/toes when a respected official screws something up. Everybody screws up and it's ok to admit when you do. If a member of your crew can get it right, I don't see the big deal.

I've seen plenty of college guys working games that mess things up. Things all of us have messed up in our careers. They are not gods and are not perfect. They have just played the "game" long enough.
Well, I do the exact same thing at the high school level. I am often working with two people that I do not work with on a regular basis. The reason I might continue to work is that I am a good partner and I do not go around assuming I have to call the game for my partners. It is one thing to call something in a dual area, but not in someone's area where they clearly have a look at a play. If someone makes a call like this and the video does not back them up, they might not work the kind of games they wish. I have worked for many assignors some pretty big games and one of the reasons that keep happening is because I am able to take care of my business and my partners are working those games for the very same reason.

Sorry but in this example, the official called something way out of his area and his partner that was on top of the player felt the call was not warranted. Guess what that official might say if asked about that play to a supervisor if asked? He might not directly throw his partner under the bus, but he might just stay what he saw. That is how you get into trouble. And a good supervisor will not only ask, but see the video if that is brought to their attention.

Guess who also asks around about particular officials? You guessed it, fellow officials get asked often about what they think of partners or might be a clinician at a camp and also give reasons for why this person should be hired or moved up. Things like this just at camp might tell me you are not ready to work a certain level. And I do not assign anything, but my opinion is often requested by those that do.

Peace
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 10, 2019, 06:13am
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It is one thing to help in your secondary area when you believe that your partner got blocked out or couldn’t see a clear infraction due to the angles of the players, but what one should avoid is over-riding another official’s judgment on a play which is observed. To be more specific, I am talking about a play in which there is contact which two officials observe. If the officials have different thresholds for what constitutes a foul, one may determine that no foul occurred and no whistle is the correct decision while the other will blow and make a call also believing that he is correct. This type of play is why I cannot agree with the “get it right” camp. These situations should be left to the primary official.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 10, 2019, 09:34am
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
It is one thing to help in your secondary area when you believe that your partner got blocked out or couldn’t see a clear infraction due to the angles of the players, but what one should avoid is over-riding another official’s judgment on a play which is observed. To be more specific, I am talking about a play in which there is contact which two officials observe. If the officials have different thresholds for what constitutes a foul, one may determine that no foul occurred and no whistle is the correct decision while the other will blow and make a call also believing that he is correct. This type of play is why I cannot agree with the “get it right” camp. These situations should be left to the primary official.
I agree 100% with this and subscribe to this philosophy fully. The play in question was well above this level of judgement, I just don't think my partner had the angle to see the contact that I saw. Or based on his comments he was looking low when the contact was high. But I have had partners call an "over the back" right in my kitchen from across the lane when I am looking directly at the play. That should be avoided at all costs.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:02am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Originally Posted by ballgame99 View Post
I agree 100% with this and subscribe to this philosophy fully. The play in question was well above this level of judgement, I just don't think my partner had the angle to see the contact that I saw. Or based on his comments he was looking low when the contact was high. But I have had partners call an "over the back" right in my kitchen from across the lane when I am looking directly at the play. That should be avoided at all costs.
But the play you described was in his lap. And if you stick your leg out to create contact, I do not care what other contact took place, I am probably passing on that play too. There is a big emphasis at many levels not to call the offensive initiated contact. He told you that he saw the contact below and you basically are saying he did not see what you saw, so you called it anyway. That is where I would be mad as an official, not because you felt you saw something. He did not say he was screened or surprised by the contact.

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Old Thu Jan 10, 2019, 11:31am
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If you are going to call into my my area there had better be some conditions:

1) THere better be a lot going on and you legitimately believe I was screened out or missed something.

2) It had better not be on the player/players I am very clearly watching and making decisions about.

3) You had better be getting something dirty/excessive if its a foul anything marginal is not worth you coming into my area on stuff we can no call.

If you don' t have 2 of those conditions met we are probably going to talk about why you assumed my judgement wasn't as valid as yours.
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