Vid Request: Wyoming vs UNLV - blarge?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Shane O

Is the mere pointing of direction enough to make a play a "blarge"?

I was in a situation the other night where I was the L in transition with the play coming at me. The T and I had a simultaneous whistle with both putting up a fist. I had pointed in other direction but not making a preliminary player control foul signal and he gave a block signal.

We quickly got together and he thought it was his call to make as he had the player with the ball going to the basket coming out of his area. I let him make the call. We went with block instead of the double foul.

Was my pointing in a direction enough to warrant a double foul in this situation?

The signaling is what creates the "blarge." If you do not signal, not "blarge" by rule (as "blarge" is not used in the rulebook either, just covering the bases right now )

If you do not signal at all, then there is no rules issue.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

..."blarge" is not used in the rulebook either, just covering the bases right now ...

Hopefully the NFHS Language Police aren't paying attention.

[Shane O]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The signaling is what creates the "blarge." If you do not signal, not "blarge" by rule (as "blarge" is not used in the rulebook either, just covering the bases right now )

If you do not signal at all, then there is no rules issue.

Peace

I did not signal a PC foul but I pointed in a direction that could be interpreted that is what I would signal. Does my pointing constitute signaling that we should have called a double foul? My partner signaled block, I pointed in opposite direction, lol.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Shane O

I did not signal a PC foul but I pointed in a direction that could be interpreted that is what I would signal. Does my pointing constitute signaling that we should have called a double foul? My partner signaled block, I pointed in opposite direction, lol.

If the coach of the team on defense sees you with a fist in the air and pointing the opposite direction, he most definitely will interpret it as an offensive foul signal.

If your partner had not had a whistle, what would be the interpretation of your fist being up and you pointing in the opposite direction?

[Raymond]

As for this play, contact occurred outside the key on the C's side of the court and the C was the one who would have had the correct call for this play. Then the calling official directs the ball to be put in play on the wrong side of the basket.

From positioning, to game awareness, to lack of hustle when going to report, to lazy administration following the call--not a good look for the Lead. (yes, I know his name and his resume')

[BigCat]

Basketball happens really fast.. Split second decisions. We talk about who last touched ball before going OB. Did violation happen before foul? I think we should be able to talk on these and figure out right call. Our football friends get to throw a fkag and then pick it up. I don’t think we should be locked in on these when each guy is reacting in split second. Let them talk and if each is firm..then do double foul thing...BLOW AND HOLD from the outside also helps avoid these situations.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Basketball happens really fast.. Split second decisions. We talk about who last touched ball before going OB. Did violation happen before foul? I think we should be able to talk on these and figure out right call. Our football friends get to throw a fkag and then pick it up. I don’t think we should be locked in on these when each guy is reacting in split second. Let them talk and if each is firm..then do double foul thing...BLOW AND HOLD from the outside also helps avoid these situations.

Officials do not do that often and it is done when there are rules that apply that would make an action not illegal. They do not pick up holding calls just because someone disagrees with the call. You might pick up a defensive pass interference because the ball was tipped at the line of scrimmage, where another official does not even rule on PI rules. If there is a play at the pylon, those plays are ruled on one way or the other and cannot just decide not to make the call. Something has to be called. We just have a rule that says we cannot just arbitrarily pick one and I think in general that is a good rule. Because officials do not need to sell every call IMO.

Peace

[Shane O]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If the coach of the team on defense sees you with a fist in the air and pointing the opposite direction, he most definitely will interpret it as an offensive foul signal.

If your partner had not had a whistle, what would be the interpretation of your fist being up and you pointing in the opposite direction?

Thanks for the feedback!

I definitely would have called an offensive foul if not for partner blowing his whistle. No doubt my pointing in the opposite direction would be interpreted as an offensive foul call.

I haven't yet been caught in a situation like that and instantly was like oh shit! I already had my story to weasel out of it if asked by the coach(which was right in front of their bench). I was gonna say something to the effect that I thought I saw my partner signaling the other way or something like that but was mistaken. Luckily it was only the fans who voiced their displeasure and not the coach.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Shane O

Thanks for the feedback!



I definitely would have called an offensive foul if not for partner blowing his whistle. No doubt my pointing in the opposite direction would be interpreted as an offensive foul call.



I haven't yet been caught in a situation like that and instantly was like oh shit! I already had my story to weasel out of it if asked by the coach(which was right in front of their bench). I was gonna say something to the effect that I thought I saw my partner signaling the other way or something like that but was mistaken. Luckily it was only the fans who voiced their displeasure and not the coach.

Your best bet is just to be truthful and take your lumps. I was involved in the second blarge ("2 official double foul" for the pendantic) of my career last Friday. I just quickly got together with my partner, made sure we knew what the status of the ball was, brought the two coaches together, quickly told them we had a double foul because we both signaled, and then got the ball back in play very quickly.

There are too many eyes and too many video cameras out there to try to fake people out.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

There are too many eyes and too many video cameras out there to try to fake people out.

Agree. It was easier back in the good old days when they only had still cameras.

This guy would always set up somewhere on the endline and get in Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s way.

[Shane O]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Your best bet is just to be truthful and take your lumps. I was involved in the second blarge ("2 official double foul" for the pendantic) of my career last Friday. I just quickly got together with my partner, made sure we knew what the status of the ball was, brought the two coaches together, I quickly told them we had a double foul because we both signaled, and then got the ball back in play very quickly.

There are too many eyes and too many video cameras out there to try to fake people out.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Good point!

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Shane O

I did not signal a PC foul but I pointed in a direction that could be interpreted that is what I would signal. Does my pointing constitute signaling that we should have called a double foul? My partner signaled block, I pointed in opposite direction, lol.

This is a legitimate question. As someone correctly pointed out the word blarge does not appear in the rules. BUT, the word signal also does not appear in the case play which is applicable here, but rather the wording says, one official rules on thing and the other official rules the opposite. Some say that in this case making a signal constitutes making a ruling. This is a widely held point of view, but sometimes, as in your case, the question comes up as to what constitutes a signal. Also, it is my impression that some officials will avoid a blarge at ALL COSTS. Specifically, if they (properly) withhold their preliminary signal and see their partner come out quickly with the signal opposite to the one that they would have had, they will walk away from the call, no matter how strong their conviction on the play. In short, this is a mess.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is a legitimate question. As someone correctly pointed out the word blarge does not appear in the rules. BUT, the word signal also does not appear in the case play which is applicable here, but rather the wording says, one official rules on thing and the other official rules the opposite. Some say that in this case making a signal constitutes making a ruling. This is a widely held point of view, but sometimes, as in your case, the question comes up as to what constitutes a signal. Also, it is my impression that some officials will avoid a blarge at ALL COSTS. Specifically, if they (properly) withhold their preliminary signal and see their partner come out quickly with the signal opposite to the one that they would have had, they will walk away from the call, no matter how strong their conviction on the play. In short, this is a mess.

You realize that the case play in question has been in the casebook for over 20 years (at least since I have been officiating). So if this was not clear, then you would think the NF or the NCAA or both would change their language to reflect the position you always seem to take here. It would be very easy to just change the wording or clarify what is meant. But for some strange and unusual situation, that has literally never happened. I wonder why?

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You realize that the case play in question has been in the casebook for over 20 years (at least since I have been officiating). So if this was not clear, then you would think the NF or the NCAA or both would change their language to reflect the position you always seem to take here. It would be very easy to just change the wording or clarify what is meant. But for some strange and unusual situation, that has literally never happened. I wonder why?

Peace

I wonder why too. My position? I did not take any position here, merely pointed out and agreed with the problems which exist by this situation when it happens and the lack of certainty in the solution thereof provided by this case play. And this thread did not even mention that the case play is, above all, contradictory to the rule.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I wonder why too. My position? I did not take any position here, merely pointed out and agreed with the problems which exist by this situation when it happens and the lack of certainty in the solution thereof provided by this case play. And this thread did not even mention that the case play is, above all, contradictory to the rule.

Yes, your position. The same position you state just about anytime this topic comes up. It is not a problem if the NF or the NCAA has never addressed the situation in a specific way to suggest what do they mean other than an actual signal. Literally, no one I have ever had a conversation with seems uncertain about what is meant.

And we do not have to mention the case play, because there is one that clearly states what is to be done. The NCAA even had this situation happen in a National Championship game and puts out regular videos and never once have they said to do something other than calling a double foul. As a matter of fact, one of the first videos of last season had a "blarge" situation and the NCAA Supervisor was adamant about what was to be done (involving the same official as in this video BTW). Since this was an NCAA game, it is clear how this is to be handled at that level.

Peace