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Old Wed Jul 04, 2018, 04:59pm
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Ball thrown to oneself off backboard - legal?

Picking up from another thread....

A1 dribbles the ball and stops, holding the ball. While holding the ball, A1 jumps in the air and obviously throws the ball off the backboard, the backboard being that of the hoop into which Team A is trying to score. A1 lands on the floor, immediately jumps in the air, catches the ball that A1 threw off the backboard, shoots, and scores. Legal?

A1 was not shooting and A1 was not passing in the throw off the backboard. A1 told us this before the play

Happens occasionally in the NBA, especially in All-Star games. Not interested in a ruling for NBA but rather NCAAM/NFHS. I vaguely recall Adams/Collins showing this play and indicating it was not legal. I also vaguely recall them not indicating what the violation would be. I am extremely confident that NCAAM/NFHS case plays exist but just can't recall them.
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Old Wed Jul 04, 2018, 05:31pm
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A.R. 107. A1 intercepts a pass and dribbles toward As basket for a break-away
layup. Near As free-throw line, A1 legally stops and ends his dribble. A1 throws
the ball against As backboard and follows the throw. While airborne, A1
rebounds the ball off the backboard and dunks.
RULING: The play shall be legal since the backboard is located in A1s
frontcourt, which A1 is entitled to use.
(Rule 5-1.1 and .6, and 9-12.1)
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Old Wed Jul 04, 2018, 06:00pm
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Legal. Anything else?
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Old Wed Jul 04, 2018, 06:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
A.R. 107. A1 intercepts a pass and dribbles toward As basket for a break-away
layup. Near As free-throw line, A1 legally stops and ends his dribble. A1 throws
the ball against As backboard and follows the throw. While airborne, A1
rebounds the ball off the backboard and dunks.
RULING: The play shall be legal since the backboard is located in A1s
frontcourt, which A1 is entitled to use.
(Rule 5-1.1 and .6, and 9-12.1)
Excellent, thanks. Now we need something for NFHS.
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Old Wed Jul 04, 2018, 06:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
Legal. Anything else?
Yes, a case for NFHS.
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Old Wed Jul 04, 2018, 06:10pm
LRZ LRZ is offline
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For FED, are you referring to CB 9.5 Situation?

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and (c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)
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Old Wed Jul 04, 2018, 08:32pm
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This play is perfectly legal for NFHS/NCAA. The relevant case plays have been provided. Don't let BillyMac confuse you.
I swear that he slips into a coma every couple of years and asks the same questions after coming out of it.
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Old Wed Jul 04, 2018, 10:52pm
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Not Ruled A Try, Not Ruled A Pass, Not Ruled A Fumble

NFHS only. Not ruled a try. Not ruled a pass. Not ruled a fumble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; ... and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used ... (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)
4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor one or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player’s own backboard.

In one very specific case, not only is it legal throw the ball against one's own backboard, but one can also legally catch it after it bounces back.

We don't know, in 9.5 SITUATION, if said player moved his pivot foot (I'm assuming he didn't for this to be legal), or any foot, before the release. That would make a difference in regard to if he's actually allowed to legally catch it. Nor does it tell us much about what the player is legally allowed to do next.

9.5 SITUATION, as written, is very limited in scope.

9.5 SITUATION, 4-15-1, and Fundamental 19, simply state that if a player ends his dribble with both feet on the floor, throws the ball off his backboard, doesn't move his feet, and catches the ball, that I can't call an illegal dribble (double dribble) violation on him. So I won't. But it doesn't say that I can't call any other violation based on the travel rules if the pivot foot moves outside of the prescribed limits. 9.5 SITUATION alone states that I can't call a violation for simply throwing the ball off of his own backboard, because it's not illegal, because it's not a rule.

These "throw the ball off the backboard and dunk plays" may involve moving a pivot foot outside the prescribed limits, a travel violation.

4-44-3: The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

What if the player touches the floor with his pivot foot between the throw and the catch, moving his pivot foot multiple times between the throw and the catch?

What NFHS rule "resets the pivot foot limits" (like a pass, or a try) after a throw off the backboard?

That's why I believe that the "throw the ball off the backboard and dunk play" is often illegal according to NFHS rules.

That's my rationale, with citations, and I'm sticking to it, at least until ...

Can someone please tell me why, by rule, or by interpretation, it's legal in the NFHS? I will be much obliged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
... asks the same questions after coming out of it
Because I've never been convinced that this is legal by NFHS rules. Never. Ever. But I'm not closed minded, so please convince me.

I have absolutely no problem ending this thread with, "I was wrong. Nice citations. Thanks for the clarification". And I promise to try to remember that for any future threads, or posts.

Now, where are my house keys?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jul 05, 2018 at 01:18am.
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Old Wed Jul 04, 2018, 10:57pm
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Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
A1 told us this before the play.
Nice. How come A1 never plays in any of my games, or shows up on any of my written exams.
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Old Thu Jul 05, 2018, 01:34am
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I Had A Thought ...

For those that want to refute my interpretation, how about starting with something along the lines of a player must be holding the ball (with one very rare exception) in order to travel. A player can't travel while dribbling, while tapping the ball, while fumbling it, or while trying to recover a loose ball.

Wait, how about a player that ends his dribble, holds the ball, intentionally (not a fumble) throws the ball toward a teammate who moves away after the ball is thrown, and then the thrower runs several feet without the ball to catch it to prevent it from being stolen? That's a travel. Same as the player who ends his dribble, throws the ball off his backboard, runs several feet, catches it (holding it), and then dunks.

Never mind.
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Old Thu Jul 05, 2018, 02:53am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Wait, how about a player that ends his dribble, holds the ball, intentionally (not a fumble) throws the ball toward a teammate who moves away after the ball is thrown, and then the thrower runs several feet without the ball to catch it to prevent it from being stolen? That's a travel. Same as the player who ends his dribble, throws the ball off his backboard, runs several feet, catches it (holding it), and then dunks.

Never mind.
Nope, that is an illegal dribble violation.
If the ball strikes the floor before the player catches it, the action constitutes a second dribble. If the ball is caught in the air prior to contacting the floor, then the definition of a proper dribble has not been met and the player has dribbled illegally, which is a violation.

Take a look at 4.15.4 Sit D.
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Old Thu Jul 05, 2018, 05:34am
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Illegal Dribble ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
4.15.4 Sit D.
4.15.4 SITUATION D: While dribbling: (a) A1 bats the ball over the head of an
opponent, runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the floor and continues to
dribble; (b) the ball bounces away but A1 is able to get to it and continues to dribble;
(c) the ball hits A1’s foot and bounces away but A1 is able to overtake and
pick it up; or (d) A1 fumbles the ball in ending the dribble so that A1 must run to
recover it. RULING: Violation in (a), because the ball was touched twice by A1’s
hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor. In (b), even though the dribble
was interrupted it has not ended and A1 may continue the dribble. In (c), the
dribble ended when A1 caught the ball; and it ended in (d) when it was fumbled.
Even though the dribble has ended in (c) and (d), A1 may recover the ball but may
not dribble again. (9-5)
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jul 05, 2018 at 06:09am.
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Old Thu Jul 05, 2018, 05:49am
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You Got Persuasion, I Cant Help Myself (Santana, 1969) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... the player who ends his dribble, throws the ball off his backboard, runs several feet, catches it, and then dunks ... That's a travel.
4-44-3: The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Take a look at 4.15.4 Sit D.
Are you saying that what I'm calling a travel violation (above) is not a travel? It also can't be an illegal dribble because of Fundamental 19: A ball which touches the front face or edges of the backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches the thrower’s backboard, it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
If the ball is caught in the air prior to contacting the floor, then the definition of a proper dribble has not been met and the player has dribbled illegally, which is a violation.
Please explain further. How has the definition of a proper dribble not been met?

Interesting. Very interesting. You've got my attention. Let's explore this further.

Again, my play is this: The player ends his dribble, throws the ball off his backboard, runs several feet, catches it, and then dunks.

I say that's a travel violation.

My rule citation is this: 4-44-3: The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

Noting that it's not a pass, nor is it a try, nor is it a fumble.

Why is my play not a travel?

And why would this be an illegal dribble (not a travel) if the ball didn't hit the backboard (the player ends his dribble, throws the ball in the air, runs several feet, catches it, and then dunks)?

That's the key to changing my interpretation, which can be changed with further persuasion.

It looks like that what I'm calling a travel may really be an illegal dribble, that can't be an illegal dribble because of Fundamental 19.

I'm actually looking forward to having my interpretation changed because it looks like I have the minority opinion here, and there has to be a good reason why I'm all alone on the minority side.

It's lonely over here. Everybody is pointing at me, and making fun of me. I really want to join the "cool" officials on the majority side.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jul 05, 2018 at 06:20am.
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Old Thu Jul 05, 2018, 07:43am
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1. Your play in which the player throws the ball off the backboard is 100% legal because both NFHS and NCAA play rulings say so. That's all there is to it.

2. You changed the play to make an example. I quoted that altered play in post #11 and told you that it is an illegal dribble.

3. What is illegal about throwing the ball into the air then running and catching it? The ball must strike the floor in order to meet the definition of a dribble. If a player doesn't cause the released ball to contact the floor, then the action doesn't qualify as a proper dribble. That is precisely why it is illegal. I've posted about this before, but I'll tell you again, the historical "air-dribble" as noted in the NFHS Basketball Handbook was made illegal several decades ago.
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Old Thu Jul 05, 2018, 10:04am
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I cannot believe (well I can) why Billy keeps arguing over a very rare situation with the possibility of some related play being what he thinks it is. When is the last time an HS official has even seen this play attempted? I know as a semi-college one myself, I do not think I have ever seen a player try this in a game. I think the last time I can think of is during the Duke-UNLV game when UNLV won running away over Duke in 1990.

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