Ball thrown to oneself off backboard - legal?

[BillyMac]

For those that want to refute my interpretation, how about starting with something along the lines of a player must be holding the ball (with one very rare exception) in order to travel. A player can't travel while dribbling, while tapping the ball, while fumbling it, or while trying to recover a loose ball.

Wait, how about a player that ends his dribble, holds the ball, intentionally (not a fumble) throws the ball toward a teammate who moves away after the ball is thrown, and then the thrower runs several feet without the ball to catch it to prevent it from being stolen? That's a travel. Same as the player who ends his dribble, throws the ball off his backboard, runs several feet, catches it (holding it), and then dunks.

Never mind.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Wait, how about a player that ends his dribble, holds the ball, intentionally (not a fumble) throws the ball toward a teammate who moves away after the ball is thrown, and then the thrower runs several feet without the ball to catch it to prevent it from being stolen? That's a travel. Same as the player who ends his dribble, throws the ball off his backboard, runs several feet, catches it (holding it), and then dunks.

Never mind.

Nope, that is an illegal dribble violation.
If the ball strikes the floor before the player catches it, the action constitutes a second dribble. If the ball is caught in the air prior to contacting the floor, then the definition of a proper dribble has not been met and the player has dribbled illegally, which is a violation.

Take a look at 4.15.4 Sit D.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

4.15.4 Sit D.

4.15.4 SITUATION D: While dribbling: (a) A1 bats the ball over the head of an
opponent, runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the floor and continues to
dribble; (b) the ball bounces away but A1 is able to get to it and continues to dribble;
(c) the ball hits A1’s foot and bounces away but A1 is able to overtake and
pick it up; or (d) A1 fumbles the ball in ending the dribble so that A1 must run to
recover it. RULING: Violation in (a), because the ball was touched twice by A1’s
hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor. In (b), even though the dribble
was interrupted it has not ended and A1 may continue the dribble. In (c), the
dribble ended when A1 caught the ball; and it ended in (d) when it was fumbled.
Even though the dribble has ended in (c) and (d), A1 may recover the ball but may
not dribble again. (9-5)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... the player who ends his dribble, throws the ball off his backboard, runs several feet, catches it, and then dunks ... That's a travel.

4-44-3: The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Take a look at 4.15.4 Sit D.

Are you saying that what I'm calling a travel violation (above) is not a travel? It also can't be an illegal dribble because of Fundamental 19: A ball which touches the front face or edges of the backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches the thrower’s backboard, it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If the ball is caught in the air prior to contacting the floor, then the definition of a proper dribble has not been met and the player has dribbled illegally, which is a violation.

Please explain further. How has the definition of a proper dribble not been met?

Interesting. Very interesting. You've got my attention. Let's explore this further.

Again, my play is this: The player ends his dribble, throws the ball off his backboard, runs several feet, catches it, and then dunks.

I say that's a travel violation.

My rule citation is this: 4-44-3: The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

Noting that it's not a pass, nor is it a try, nor is it a fumble.

Why is my play not a travel?

And why would this be an illegal dribble (not a travel) if the ball didn't hit the backboard (the player ends his dribble, throws the ball in the air, runs several feet, catches it, and then dunks)?

That's the key to changing my interpretation, which can be changed with further persuasion.

It looks like that what I'm calling a travel may really be an illegal dribble, that can't be an illegal dribble because of Fundamental 19.

I'm actually looking forward to having my interpretation changed because it looks like I have the minority opinion here, and there has to be a good reason why I'm all alone on the minority side.

It's lonely over here. Everybody is pointing at me, and making fun of me. I really want to join the "cool" officials on the majority side.

[Nevadaref]

1. Your play in which the player throws the ball off the backboard is 100% legal because both NFHS and NCAA play rulings say so. That's all there is to it.

2. You changed the play to make an example. I quoted that altered play in post #11 and told you that it is an illegal dribble.

3. What is illegal about throwing the ball into the air then running and catching it? The ball must strike the floor in order to meet the definition of a dribble. If a player doesn't cause the released ball to contact the floor, then the action doesn't qualify as a proper dribble. That is precisely why it is illegal. I've posted about this before, but I'll tell you again, the historical "air-dribble" as noted in the NFHS Basketball Handbook was made illegal several decades ago.

[JRutledge]

I cannot believe (well I can) why Billy keeps arguing over a very rare situation with the possibility of some related play being what he thinks it is. When is the last time an HS official has even seen this play attempted? I know as a semi-college one myself, I do not think I have ever seen a player try this in a game. I think the last time I can think of is during the Duke-UNLV game when UNLV won running away over Duke in 1990.

Peace

[Raymond]

I have a new interpretation:

If over 25% of the responses in a thread are from BillyMac, the question has already been adequately answered for everyone else.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... a very rare situation ... When is the last time an HS official has even seen this play attempted?

Agree. I have never observed this play in any of my games, nor have I ever observed it in any high school game, and I've observed, or worked, a lot of high school games over almost four decades.

When it happens the first time, I want to call it correctly, not guess to myself, "LeBron James does this all the time so it must be legal. I'm not going to penalize a player because he's athletic." Nor do I want to guess to myself, "Wow that's a lot of steps so it must be a travel".

[bucky]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I cannot believe (well I can) why Billy keeps arguing over a very rare situation with the possibility of some related play being what he thinks it is. When is the last time an HS official has even seen this play attempted? I know as a semi-college one myself, I do not think I have ever seen a player try this in a game. I think the last time I can think of is during the Duke-UNLV game when UNLV won running away over Duke in 1990.

Peace

Lebron recently did it although NBA rules obviously applied. I recall doing it in HS myself a million years ago.

By digging deep into the grammar/wording of various sources, I do indeed see BM's point. I also understand the points made by others.

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (b) the opponent’s backboard;RULING: In (b), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor one or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player’s own backboard.

Interesting that the case indicates that throwing the ball against the opponent's backboard is a dribble but yet that action does not fit the definition of a dribble.

Indeed, there are loopholes in the rule/case books and often times they lead to weird/lengthy, and borderline irrelevant, debates. Makes it fun though doesn't it?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bucky

Lebron recently did it although NBA rules obviously applied. I recall doing it in HS myself a million years ago.

By digging deep into the grammar/wording of various sources, I do indeed see BM's point. I also understand the points made by others.

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (b) the opponent’s backboard;RULING: In (b), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor one or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player’s own backboard.

Interesting that the case indicates that throwing the ball against the opponent's backboard is a dribble but yet that action does not fit the definition of a dribble.

Indeed, there are loopholes in the rule/case books and often times they lead to weird/lengthy, and borderline irrelevant, debates. Makes it fun though doesn't it?

Why doesn't it fit the definition of a dribble?

If you reference the definition of ball location, it does by way of saying the backboard is treated as if it were part of the floor....

Rule 4-4
ART. 4 . . . A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual’s location.
ART. 5 . . . A ball which touches the front faces or edges of the backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds; see also 4-15-1.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

I do indeed see BM's point ... Makes it fun though doesn't it?

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but see my most recent post.

Agree, it is fun, especially in the summer, the off season. It also helps us to understand the rules.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

Lebron recently did it ... I recall doing it in HS myself a million years ago.

My best was to dunk a golf ball. I could never move up to dunking a tennis ball. A basketball was never part of the equation. Never. Ever. Not even close.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If a player doesn't cause the released ball to contact the floor, then the action doesn't qualify as a proper dribble. That is precisely why it is illegal.

Which illegal act has the player accomplished (see below)?

9-5: Illegal Dribble: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended,
unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

Let's make this as simple as possible and leave the backboard, and the throw out of it.

Play: A1 ends his dribble, intentionally throws the ball in the air, runs several feet, and catches the ball that hasn't touched the floor.

Travel, or illegal dribble?

4-44-3: Travel: The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

It's not a try, nor a pass, nor a fumble.

I don't believe that it's even a dribble, illegal, or otherwise.

4-15: Dribble: ART. 1 A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats
(intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once
or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player’s own
backboard.
ART. 2 During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is
permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).
ART. 3 The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball
to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

The ball is thrown into the air, not batted in into the air.

It's not a legal dribble. It's not an illegal dribble. It's not a dribble. It's a travel.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Play: A1 ends his dribble, intentionally throws the ball in the air, runs several feet, and catches the ball that hasn't touched the floor.

I don't believe that it's even a dribble, illegal, or otherwise.

The ball is thrown into the air, not batted in into the air.

It's not a legal dribble. It's not an illegal dribble. It's not a dribble. It's a travel.

Let's move forward, and not look back.

I think that I'm starting to get it.

Play A: A1 ends his dribble, intentionally throws the ball in the air, runs several feet, and catches the ball that hasn't touched the floor.

4-15: Dribble: ART. 3 The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

After the player ends his dribble, he throws it into the air. We all know that a player, all by himself, no defense nearby, may occasionally start his dribble by throwing it into the air (the rule says thrown to the floor, but gravity will end up doing that eventually). So that's the start of a possible second dribble, and his subsequent catch of ball seals the deal and makes it a dribble for sure, more so, an illegal (double) dribble.

Play B: A2 ends his dribble, intentionally throws the ball off his backboard, runs several feet, catches it, and then dunks.

Now add in the throw subsequently bouncing off the backboard. Fundamental 19 tells us that a ball which touches the front face or edges of the backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches the thrower’s
backboard, it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

So with no backboard involved in the play, it's an illegal (double) dribble.

But with the backboard in the play, the portion of the play where the thrown ball bounces off the backboard back into the hands of the player is not considered to be a part of a dribble (Fundamental 19) so it's not an illegal (double) dribble, so it's legal.

https://youtu.be/uAskXXKV2GU

This apparently legal NFHS "LeBron James play" has nothing to do with traveling, and/or foot movement, it's all about legal dribbling, and/or illegal dribbling.

The possibility of traveling (running to catch) was the shiny object that distracted me. With one rare exception, one must be holding the ball to travel.

Can anyone please confirm, or deny, the reasoning and logic behind this interpretation?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Let's move forward, and not look back.

I think that I'm starting to get it.

Play A: A1 ends his dribble, intentionally throws the ball in the air, runs several feet, and catches the ball that hasn't touched the floor.

4-15: Dribble: ART. 3 The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

After the player ends his dribble, he throws it into the air. We all know that a player, all by himself, no defense nearby, may occasionally start his dribble by throwing it into the air (the rule says thrown to the floor, but gravity will end doing that eventually). So that's the start of a possible second dribble, and his subsequent catch of ball seals the deal and makes it a dribble for sure, more so, an illegal (double) dribble.

Play B: A2 ends his dribble, intentionally throws the ball off his backboard, runs several feet, catches it, and then dunks.

Now add in the throw subsequently bouncing off the backboard. Fundamental 19 tells us that a ball which touches the front face or edges of the backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches the thrower’s
backboard, it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

So with no backboard involved in the play, it's an illegal (double) dribble.

But with the backboard in the play, the portion of the play where the thrown ball bounces off the backboard back into the hands of the player is not considered to be a part of a dribble (Fundamental 19) so it's not an illegal (double) dribble, so it's legal.

https://youtu.be/uAskXXKV2GU

This apparently legal NFHS "LeBron James play" has nothing to do with traveling, and/or foot movement, it's all about legal dribbling, and/or illegal dribbling.

The possibility of traveling (running to catch) was the shiny object that distracted me. With one rare exception, one must be holding the ball to travel.

Can anyone please confirm, or deny, the reasoning and logic behind this interpretation?

I agree.

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