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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 04, 2018, 08:06am
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Ejected coach doesn't leave immediately

I have read past threads about how to handle an ejected coach who refuses to leave, and most say to try to avoid a forfeit at all costs, which I totally understand. But those examples were for a HS game, and in one case, a HS playoff game. What about an AAU-type tournament, with 18-minute running halves, 50 minutes allotted for each game, multi-court facility, no site manager…etc...you know, the type of game most of you avoid!

8th Grade boys. HC (up by 15 midway thru 2nd half) was very calm and never demonstrative, but earned his two T’s by questioning a call, not letting it go, then called my partner a clown…then took his sweet time in leaving. Finally left after about two minutes. The first minute was spent with my partner and I and the AC urging the HC to leave, while the HC continued to calmly stand there calling my partner a clown at midcourt. The 2nd minute was the HC taking his time, saying goodbye to his players, and slowly walking out. (I know none of this meets the definition of “immediately”) After the game, a fan/ref said we could have continued to give him T’s, (which I know is true), some suggested forfeit…At this level, are you more likely to go to a forfeit than a HS game?
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Old Mon Jun 04, 2018, 08:32am
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At some point I'm giving him 1 minute to leave or I'm walking off the game. The folks running the tournament can decide if it is a forfeit or not.
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Old Mon Jun 04, 2018, 09:27am
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Raymond is right. I can control myself. Now I would forfeit the game, but that means I am not working anymore.

I have little tolerance for any travel/AAU style game. And I have even less for younger ages.

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Last edited by JRutledge; Mon Jun 04, 2018 at 12:15pm.
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Old Mon Jun 04, 2018, 12:01pm
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In a high school game you will likely have administrators and/or security who will get the coach out of there. In the unlikely event they don't do their job and the coach doesn't leave on his own, suspend the game and let your state take it from there.

Non-scholastic game, all bets are off. Yes, I am exponentially more likely to declare a forfeit. No TD or security? I'm with Raymond; set the timer for a minute, and if he's still there then declare a forfeit, grab your bags and GTHO. Those games aren't worth the headache. If your assigner, etc. doesn't defend you, then it's probably time to move on.

Don't stick around getting treated like dirt "so the kids don't get penalized." The "kids" and their parents have no one to blame but the coach.
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Old Mon Jun 04, 2018, 12:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
In a high school game you will likely have administrators and/or security who will get the coach out of there. In the unlikely event they don't do their job and the coach doesn't leave on his own, suspend the game and let your state take it from there.
Also in an actual high school or even lower level school games, there is likely accountability to that school, league, state or organization that would not allow such behavior in an extra-curricular activity.

I did a college game this year where I was called a very derogatory word. Not only is there an automatic penalty for an ejection, but the school took further action to penalize the coach. And I was able to write a report about the incident and the interactions. I have never had to even answer to an assignor in an AAU/Travel environment. I have never had to discuss why someone got ejected other than may be a tournament director that is not an official. But unless you decide to pay me the full amount of money that I would get paid during a real game, I am not putting up with any extra stuff just so I can say, "This is for the kids." And the actions of because they pay money is even less of an influence on me which is their common claim for bad behavior.

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Old Mon Jun 04, 2018, 02:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
I have read past threads about how to handle an ejected coach who refuses to leave, and most say to try to avoid a forfeit at all costs, which I totally understand. But those examples were for a HS game, and in one case, a HS playoff game. What about an AAU-type tournament, with 18-minute running halves, 50 minutes allotted for each game, multi-court facility, no site manager…etc...you know, the type of game most of you avoid!

8th Grade boys. HC (up by 15 midway thru 2nd half) was very calm and never demonstrative, but earned his two T’s by questioning a call, not letting it go, then called my partner a clown…then took his sweet time in leaving. Finally left after about two minutes. The first minute was spent with my partner and I and the AC urging the HC to leave, while the HC continued to calmly stand there calling my partner a clown at midcourt. The 2nd minute was the HC taking his time, saying goodbye to his players, and slowly walking out. (I know none of this meets the definition of “immediately”) After the game, a fan/ref said we could have continued to give him T’s, (which I know is true), some suggested forfeit…At this level, are you more likely to go to a forfeit than a HS game?
My son played in an AAU game recently in which the opposing coach was given a third T, I believe for rather graphic language as he was leaving half way through the first half. He mysteriously came back into the gym and tournament management came and discussed with the referees and the coach. He apparently didn't like it when he was, eventually, told he really did have to leave. And yelled at his assistant coach to take the team of the court. Yup, game ended before halftime.

(In the same tournament, an opposing player pushed a ref, then went charging back at the ref and was held back by several people. Refs seemed to be getting ready to inbound the ball before deciding there had to be a T in there somewhere (just one!), and awarding FTs.)

I talked to another Dad (of another team) who was really frustrated with the fact the tournaments can't get decent refs . . . it does seem like we have these tournaments with all decent varsity players and refs who would be lucky to get JV assignments in a competitive league. (Don't get me wrong, I fully get why most of you won't do these games (I wouldn't either), it's just damned frustrating to pay what we pay for the kids to play, pay again to watch, and get (usually) refs who are in over their heads.)

I am *so* not going to miss AAU next year when my son is done.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 04, 2018, 03:01pm
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In my experience, most travel ball "coaches" and tournament directors couldn't care less if they get varsity- or college-caliber officiating on their games, if they even know what that really entails. They just want officials to "let 'em play," call obvious fouls, and keep the games on schedule. Many times the incidents happen when you actually have a good official on the court who knows how to work and doesn't put up with the BS.

I don't feel sorry one bit for travel ball coaches, players, TDs, or parents. They've created an environment that most good officials have no desire to be a part of. Paying a fair amount for 3-person crews would be a start if they really care about having more varsity/college officials on their games.

Last edited by SC Official; Mon Jun 04, 2018 at 03:34pm. Reason: clarification
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Old Mon Jun 04, 2018, 03:28pm
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Forfeiture, Not Suspension ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
In a high school game ... in the unlikely event ... the coach doesn't leave on his own, suspend the game and let your state take it from there.
Why would you "only" suspend an interscholastic game, when there is absolutely no rule language for such a suspension, especially when there is clearly rule language for the "nuclear option", forfeiture.

2-5-4: The referee shall: May declare the game a forfeit when conditions warrant.

5-4-1: The referee shall forfeit the game if a team refuses to play after being instructed to do so by any official. The referee may also forfeit a game if any player, team member, bench personnel or coach fails to comply with any technical-foul penalty, or repeatedly commits technical-foul infractions or other acts which make a travesty of the game.

10-4-Penalty-Note: Ejected adult bench personnel shall leave the vicinity (out of sight and sound) of the playing area immediately and are prohibited from any further contact (direct or indirect) with the team during the remainder of the game. Failure to comply with the rules of ejection may result in the game being forfeited.

10-5-Penalty-Note: Ejected adult bench personnel shall leave the vicinity (out of sight and sound) of the playing area immediately and are prohibited from any further contact (direct or indirect) with the team during the remainder of the game. Failure to comply with the rules of ejection may result in the game being forfeited.


5.4.1 SITUATION A: A1 commits his/her fifth personal foul. Both the head
coach and player are properly notified. Team A has substitutes available but the
head coach from Team A does not send a substitute to the table within the 20-
second time limit. The Team A head coach is assessed a technical foul. The head
coach still does not send a substitute to the table. RULING: The official should
forfeit the contest to the opposing team for the head coach delaying the contest
and attempting to make a travesty of the game. COMMENT: The referee may forfeit
a game if any player, team member, bench personnel or coach fails to comply
with any technical foul penalty.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jun 04, 2018 at 03:33pm.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 04, 2018, 03:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Why would you "only" suspend an interscholastic game, when there is absolutely no rule language for such a suspension, especially when there is clearly rule language for the "nuclear option", forfeiture.
Because it's widely accepted in practice.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 04, 2018, 03:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
In my experience, most travel ball "coaches" and tournament directors couldn't care less if they get varsity- or college-caliber officiating on their games, if they even know what that really entails. They just want officials to "let 'em play," call obvious fouls, and keep the games on schedule. Many times the incidents happen when you actually have a good official on the court who knows how to work and doesn't put up with the BS.

I don't feel sorry one bit for travel ball coaches, players, TDs, or parents. They've created an environment that most good officials have no desire to be a part of. Paying a fair amount for 3-person crews would be a start if they really care about having more varsity/college officials on their games.
Most of the time I work any AAU ball is at a college camp. And I used to go to this camp in Indiana where the talent was above average and every year there were about 3 or 4 coaches removed by police almost every year. At least we were empowered by the supervisor to actually T up coaches too. Now the people at this camp where often college officials with some exceptions and either on the staff of the camp director's leagues or worked college for someone else. Most officials were better than the average high school officials and the coaches still acted out. So even if they paid for 3-person for every game, they still would not get a lot of top officials to work those games just for the principle of the matter.

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Old Mon Jun 04, 2018, 04:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Most of the time I work any AAU ball is at a college camp. And I used to go to this camp in Indiana where the talent was above average and every year there were about 3 or 4 coaches removed by police almost every year. At least we were empowered by the supervisor to actually T up coaches too. Now the people at this camp where often college officials with some exceptions and either on the staff of the camp director's leagues or worked college for someone else. Most officials were better than the average high school officials and the coaches still acted out. So even if they paid for 3-person for every game, they still would not get a lot of top officials to work those games just for the principle of the matter.
Exactly the point I was trying to make.

Coaches at these tournaments are prone to acting up regardless of the caliber of officiating. There's just no accountability more often than not; when you ask why, the answer is normally "They paid to be here." And the way we define a good official is often much different than the way these coaches would. Heck, just look at the Lavar Ball incident last summer–Division 1 officials on his court and that wasn't good enough for him. Very rarely are we dealing with real scholastic coaches (who more often than not are used to conducting themselves in a positive manner) in these settings.
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Old Mon Jun 04, 2018, 05:46pm
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No One Would Even Blink An Eye ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Because it's widely accepted in practice.
Once again, as usual here on the Forum, it's probably one of those, "When in Rome ....", situations.

Here in Connecticut, high school athletic directors, high school principals, school superintendents, assignment commissioners, and the interscholastic high school sports governing body, would have absolutely no problem if a basketball referee forfeited a game because an ejected coach refused to leave the gymnasium in a timely manner. No one would even blink an eye.
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Old Mon Jun 04, 2018, 05:57pm
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Who Do AAU Coaches Have To Answer To, ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
... scholastic coaches (who more often than not are used to conducting themselves in a positive manner) ...
Agree. Because they have to answer to athletic directors, principals, superintendents, boards of education, and interscholastic high school sports governing bodies (and I'll throw in parents, and a town full of taxpayers, and voters).

Who do AAU coaches have to answer to? The parents? The head of their local AAU organization (who may be a coach)? It's a very short list.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jun 04, 2018 at 06:01pm.
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2018, 10:35am
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Most of these so called AAU coaches are the same people that are screaming at
referees in the winter during high school games. I have been fortunate enough the last 4 - 5 years to work an EYBL session or two. They are great for the most part and the coaches are well behaved. You rarely don't hear the old "ball don't lie" line. Teams like Team Takeover, NY Rens, Houston Hoops have great coaches who are a pleasure to work for and the kids at the 17U level are well behaved as well.

I do think at some of the more local AAU events that assigners don't care and if you work more than three games in a row, then whatever grief you get is on you. Some guys don't switch and will walk up and down the court.

I've seen Scott Foster lose it on AAU referees on more than one occasion.....
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 05, 2018, 10:48am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Multiple Sports View Post

I've seen Scott Foster lose it on AAU referees on more than one occasion.....
Can you give a context here? Lose it for what?

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