Camp Reviews/Info? Sticky?

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

SC, can't we get this thread back on topic?

Start a new thread if you don’t like where the discussion went. No one else seems to have an issue. And, we heard you the first time.

And just FYI, when you get to the college level, it is expected and implied that you know NCAA rules. Assigners don’t administer rules exams with a minimum passing score like you have in many states for HS (unless you are trying to work the NCAA tournament). And assigners certainly aren’t spending time at camp teaching rules that you supposed to learn on your own. You prove you know the rules by not f*cking one up, not by taking an exam or showing off your knowledge at camp.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Start a new thread if you don’t like where the discussion went. No one else seems to have an issue. And, we heard you the first time.

And just FYI, when you get to the college level, it is expected and implied that you know NCAA rules. Assigners don’t administer rules exams with a minimum passing score like you have in many states for HS (unless you are trying to work the NCAA tournament). And assigners certainly aren’t spending time at camp teaching rules that you supposed to learn on your own. You prove you know the rules by not f*cking one up, not by taking an exam or showing off your knowledge at camp.

If I understand things correctly, the rules test that I would take on the NCAA Basketball Arbiter Central Hub is just for tournament purposes, and has no effect on the regular season? I'm not trying to be stupid on purpose, I'm trying to understand how the college world works, what is the same as high school, and what isn't.

Right now, in addition to reading the high school rules before and during the season, I also make it a point of emphasis to read the NCAA rules (Men's and Women's), and the CCA manuals regularly, to grok the NCAA game as well as the high school game. Where I am, high school games use the shot clock, so I have to know at least some NCAA rules to ensure that the operators don't screw up.

To JRut, the reason why I posted my review is two-fold. First, there might be users (and lurkers) in the DMV who might also want to attend a good teaching camp, and who have recently started officiating. Second, this was the original intended purpose of this thread (cf. the title).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

If I understand things correctly, the rules test that I would take on the NCAA Basketball Arbiter Central Hub is just for tournament purposes, and has no effect on the regular season? I'm not trying to be stupid on purpose, I'm trying to understand how the college world works, what is the same as high school, and what isn't.

You were long hired before you took that test if you were hired by anyone at all. I can put a bunch of money on the line that no assignor gives or takes away games solely on the NCAA test that anyone can take if you pay the fee to join the NCAA Arbiter site.

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

To JRut, the reason why I posted my review is two-fold. First, there might be users (and lurkers) in the DMV who might also want to attend a good teaching camp, and who have recently started officiating. Second, this was the original intended purpose of this thread (cf. the title).

That is fine, but the point is even if someone does, it is only good as the people you trust honestly. Not everyone goes to a camp with the same expectations. I know I go to camps for my own personal reasons and my evaluation might not apply well to you if you are going for your own reasons. That is one reason I would not post a review of any camp here. I might tell someone what my experience was in private with another person that is asking. For example, if I had a bad experience at a camp, this would be the last place I would likely tell anyone about that experience. And if that is hard to understand, then I am not sure what to tell you at this point.

Peace

[sdoebler]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is fine, but the point is even if someone does, it is only good as the people you trust honestly. Not everyone goes to a camp with the same expectations. I know I go to camps for my own personal reasons and my evaluation might not apply well to you if you are going for your own reasons. That is one reason I would not post a review of any camp here. I might tell someone what my experience was in private with another person that is asking. For example, if I had a bad experience at a camp, this would be the last place I would likely tell anyone about that experience. And if that is hard to understand, then I am not sure what to tell you at this point.

Peace

Yes but the point is that there are many camps all over and some people don't know anyone who has attended. Some perspective is better than going in blind. A review or thoughts coming from some random person on the internet is better than nothing at all, plus if you get multiple peoples opinion at least you can start to have an idea even if they differ. If a camp is purely a teaching camp with all classroom and zero games worked that is good to know. The full list of evaluators isn't always made available, if your local assignor is working at a camp and you would like to work from him but it is not well known where he is getting new recruits that is valuable information.

It is kinda like Yelp, I most likely don't know anyone that is reviewing a place I might go but I am still interested in their opinion. I have been to places that most people love that I end up hating, and been to places that people hate that I love. The vast opinion or single opinion of something doesn't make it fact but at least with a few other peoples reviews you can get a better understanding of what to expect rather than going in blind.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by sdoebler

Yes but the point is that there are many camps all over and some people don't know anyone who has attended. Some perspective is better than going in blind. A review or thoughts coming from some random person on the internet is better than nothing at all, plus if you get multiple peoples opinion at least you can start to have an idea even if they differ. If a camp is purely a teaching camp with all classroom and zero games worked that is good to know. The full list of evaluators isn't always made available, if your local assignor is working at a camp and you would like to work from him but it is not well known where he is getting new recruits that is valuable information.

Again, I think when you attend a camp a review from a random person is really not one I would pay much attention to for multiple reasons and the reasons I stated earlier. But that is me. If you are looking for that, you might not get what you want here. And if a camp is run by a supervisor of some kind or has supervisors for college in attendance, they are not usually "teaching camps." I am going to take another guess. Most people are not posting stickly local camps here. I would not post camps to IHSA certifications when most here would not be in the area or it would not serve them any purpose in their career from another state.

Originally Posted by sdoebler

It is kinda like Yelp, I most likely don't know anyone that is reviewing a place I might go but I am still interested in their opinion. I have been to places that most people love that I end up hating, and been to places that people hate that I love. The vast opinion or single opinion of something doesn't make it fact but at least with a few other peoples reviews you can get a better understanding of what to expect rather than going in blind.

Forgive me but I do not put much stock in Yelp. And would take even less stock in this kind of situation. My point is that you are not going to get enough reviews from people here anyway. There are not many people here that are going to camps all over the country. You might get one or two reviews. I would hope that someone is not making a decision to invest in themselves based off of one or two people they have never met. But again this is me.

Peace

[sdoebler]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And if a camp is run by a supervisor of some kind or has supervisors for college in attendance, they are not usually "teaching camps."

I would hope that someone is not making a decision to invest in themselves based off of one or two people they have never met. But again this is me.

Peace

Wouldn't that be nice to know if it was a teaching camp or not? If only you could ask or reference that.

Would you rather make an investment in a camp based or one or two people you have never met (ignoring the fact that there are people here who are respected in this field) or based nothing but maybe the camp flyer?

You don't have to participate but there is still value to others even if you don't see it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by sdoebler

Wouldn't that be nice to know if it was a teaching camp or not? If only you could ask or reference that.

I guess that depends on what you consider a "teaching camp." Rarely are camps run by a college supervisor where they hire mainly from their camps, are what I would call "teaching camps" from my experience. You will still learn some things, but they are not going to teach you for example 3 person if you have never done it before. They will not teach you even many mechanics if you are not familiar with them. They might address those things, but they are not going to stop the games to show you were to stand on a play. They expect you to know those things.

Originally Posted by sdoebler

Would you rather make an investment in a camp based or one or two people you have never met (ignoring the fact that there are people here who are respected in this field) or based nothing but maybe the camp flyer?

Is this what mentors are for? You do not have people in your life to bounce off these things with? I know I have met some people here over the years from camps, but I would not call those people someone I mentored their career. And that is why it is also valuable to have a mentor at the level that you are trying to get access to. There might be one person on this site that I would actually listen to about any camp on listed on this site and I would pick up the phone and call them to get that information. Nothing against people here for the most part, but not everyone is where I am or where I am trying to go. Maybe I am old school, I think talking to someone directly is much more valuable than doing everything online or through some detached social media platform.

Originally Posted by sdoebler

You don't have to participate but there is still value to others even if you don't see it.

You responded to me. I was giving my opinion. Now if you want those type of reviews, then wait for those to be posted.

Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

If I understand things correctly, the rules test that I would take on the NCAA Basketball Arbiter Central Hub is just for tournament purposes, and has no effect on the regular season? I'm not trying to be stupid on purpose, I'm trying to understand how the college world works, what is the same as high school, and what isn't.

The extent to which college is different than high school depends heavily on where you officiate high school. In college every league hires its own assigner that you have to get hired by, normally by going to camp. Some assigners have one league, some have a bunch. Some high school areas work like this, or you might be in a state where an association assigns games for a geographic region, and the only way to work games is to be a member of that association.

One thing is for sure, though. In many states (mine being one of them), how you perform on a rules exam is very important. In college, you won’t even take an exam unless you are registering with the NCAA, as you noted. Anyone can register with the NCAA, regardless of whether you are “in contention” for the postseason or not. And, as noted, college assigners are very unlikely to give a damn about how well you are capable of doing on a rules exam. It’s an “unwritten rule” of college officiating that you know and are able to apply the rules on your own.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

It’s an “unwritten rule” of college officiating that you know and are able to apply the rules on your own.

If you screw up a rule application in a college game, it is very likely you will be suspended by that conference for a game or two. And it does not always matter if you are the official that made the actual mistake. Crews have been changed based on rules mistakes in my experience. In a HS game, you can make a rules mistake and no one mentions such mistake unless the media gets wind of such mistake.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

If I understand things correctly, the rules test that I would take on the NCAA Basketball Arbiter Central Hub is just for tournament purposes, and has no effect on the regular season? I'm not trying to be stupid on purpose, I'm trying to understand how the college world works, what is the same as high school, and what isn't.

...

How the college world works for a newcomer is that a college supervisor or one of his/her trust confidants need to see something in you that inspires confidence that you can be successful at that level. One thing that will drive them away is a bunch of peripheral questions.

As far as reviewing camps in the DMV, you live and work there, so you should be providing your own assessments for us here on camps with which you are familiar. And if you need additional information, you should be in communication with college officials in your area and get direct feedback from them based on their knowledge and experience.

On a side note, Tim Ebersole picked up the new D3 conference that was formed, Atlantic East Conference. So like the JuCo supervisor out of SC, Ebersole is going to be looking to bring in new officials. May behoove you to attend one of his myriad of camps this off-season.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by Raymond

How the college world works for a newcomer is that a college supervisor or one of his/her trust confidants need to see something in you that inspires confidence that you can be successful at that level. One thing that will drive them away is a bunch of peripheral questions.

As far as reviewing camps in the DMV, you live and work there, so you should be providing your own assessments for us here on camps with which you are familiar. And if you need additional information, you should be in communication with college officials in your area and get direct feedback from them based on their knowledge and experience.

On a side note, Tim Ebersole picked up the new D3 conference that was formed, Atlantic East Conference. So like the JuCo supervisor out of SC, Ebersole is going to be looking to bring in new officials. May behoove you to attend one of his myriad of camps this off-season.

Understood. I don't know very many people offline (not good enough to ask for advice on camps), and that is why I'm asking the questions I am online. I've also only been to Level One Basketball Officials (the camp run by Que'z), which I posted a review for, when it comes specifically to basketball camps. I'll be away for most of June and July, but if Ebersole happens to have a camp in August (or later), I'll make sure to show up for that.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Understood. I don't know very many people offline (not good enough to ask for advice on camps), and that is why I'm asking the questions I am online. I've also only been to Level One Basketball Officials (the camp run by Que'z), which I posted a review for, when it comes specifically to basketball camps. I'll be away for most of June and July, but if Ebersole happens to have a camp in August (or later), I'll make sure to show up for that.

Why would you not be good enough to ask advice about a camp? I give advice to officials about camps all the time that are just starting. I give them the advice that fits their skill level to know what they are going to get into if going to a specific camp. For example, if you have never worked a varsity game, I might not tell you to go to a high-level college camp expecting to be hired at that level, but might tell you what you can learn from that camp.

Peace

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why would you not be good enough to ask advice about a camp? I give advice to officials about camps all the time that are just starting. I give them the advice that fits their skill level to know what they are going to get into if going to a specific camp. For example, if you have never worked a varsity game, I might not tell you to go to a high-level college camp expecting to be hired at that level, but might tell you what you can learn from that camp.

Peace

I meant that I might not know people well enough to ask them about camps. Sorry for my wording being confusing.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I meant that I might not know people well enough to ask them about camps. Sorry for my wording being confusing.

Then just ask someone and let their answer lead you. They might give you the names of the people that know more than them.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I meant that I might not know people well enough to ask them about camps. Sorry for my wording being confusing.

Your assigner? Someone in your association? (I recognize that different areas do things differently, so these might not work directly for you.)