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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Fri May 04, 2018, 02:17pm
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Originally Posted by Player989random View Post
Curtis Shaw Camp's (COG):
The staff is nice and you can learn a lot if that's what you're into. But it's clearly a tryout camp. For the cost you do get room and dinner, which is a hell of a lot more than what other D1 camps give you. You work 6-8 games in 3 days, so good luck here.
_____________________________________

You do get lodging, and you get two meals. The rest is on you.

As for a meat market...yeah, that's what it is. The one I was at had over 100 people at it.
Joe Forte’s camp, which I talked about earlier in this thread, has easily over 100 campers annually. No lodging or food, $495 this year. And he only has two leagues (only one D1). Now that’s a meat market IMO.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Fri May 04, 2018, 04:11pm
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Joe Forte’s camp, which I talked about earlier in this thread, has easily over 100 campers annually. No lodging or food, $495 this year. And he only has two leagues (only one D1). Now that’s a meat market IMO.
Except for when Ed T. Rush was supervisor for the PAC-12, I haven't seen or read about a D1 camp that is not a meat market.

Conferences pay supervisors to hire and manage a staff.

Tournament directors are paying supervisors to provide officials for their off-season games.

We are paying supervisors exorbitant amounts of money for the "privilege" to work their off-season games and for a job interview in which we interact with the supervisor no more than 5-10 minutes the entire weekend.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Fri May 04, 2018, 06:38pm
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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Except for when Ed T. Rush was supervisor for the PAC-12, I haven't seen or read about a D1 camp that is not a meat market.

Conferences pay supervisors to hire and manage a staff.

Tournament directors are paying supervisors to provide officials for their off-season games.

We are paying supervisors exorbitant amounts of money for the "privilege" to work their off-season games and for a job interview in which we interact with the supervisor no more than 5-10 minutes the entire weekend.
All. Of. This. Also, the registration fees assigners collect from their staff along with all the camp money.

Waiting for some self-righteous official to come along and say “well no one’s making you pay for it.”
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Fri May 04, 2018, 08:39pm
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My true goal is to one day become a conference supervisor. So I can make the real money. I would say that I'd be different, but that temptation sounds too strong to ignore.

Side Note: If you are looking to appear in front of Barry Fishman, the D3 Super Camp website says he'll be there as well.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Fri May 04, 2018, 09:06pm
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Originally Posted by Player989random View Post
My true goal is to one day become a conference supervisor. So I can make the real money. I would say that I'd be different, but that temptation sounds too strong to ignore.
Kinda insane that commissioners let assigners get away with it, if you think about it.

Why pay someone to hire, assign, and evaluate officials when that individual is going to turn around and charge prospective officials, anyway, to do the exact same thing that the conference is already paying him/her for? If I were a commissioner, I'd feel like I was being ripped off.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Fri May 04, 2018, 09:15pm
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I think it's more of a "If it ain't broke..." situation. The commissioners don't care as long as the coaches don't cry about the officials. How the assignors pick the officials isn't their problem.

It's a ****ed up business we're in.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 06, 2018, 12:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Except for when Ed T. Rush was supervisor for the PAC-12, I haven't seen or read about a D1 camp that is not a meat market.

Conferences pay supervisors to hire and manage a staff.

Tournament directors are paying supervisors to provide officials for their off-season games.

We are paying supervisors exorbitant amounts of money for the "privilege" to work their off-season games and for a job interview in which we interact with the supervisor no more than 5-10 minutes the entire weekend.
Is it the same way in D3 basketball? If it is, the scale of meat market behavior might be less, but I could be mistaken. AFAIK, CBOA (the men's college basketball association on the east coast) uses an application process rather than a specific recruiting camp, so how are officials seen for that, and similar organizations, if they do not host tryout camps?

Last edited by ilyazhito; Sun May 06, 2018 at 12:19am. Reason: clarification; CBOA is the abbreviation for 2 different groups.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 06, 2018, 10:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Is it the same way in D3 basketball? If it is, the scale of meat market behavior might be less, but I could be mistaken. AFAIK, CBOA (the men's college basketball association on the east coast) uses an application process rather than a specific recruiting camp, so how are officials seen for that, and similar organizations, if they do not host tryout camps?
Lower level college is very different based on where you are in the country or who assigns it. If a D1 supervisor assigns a lower level college league, they might use that as a stepping stone to their league. Now there are all these consortium arrangments where conferences like the BIG use the lower level leagues to help filter officials to the D1 leagues.

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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 06, 2018, 12:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Is it the same way in D3 basketball? If it is, the scale of meat market behavior might be less, but I could be mistaken. AFAIK, CBOA (the men's college basketball association on the east coast) uses an application process rather than a specific recruiting camp, so how are officials seen for that, and similar organizations, if they do not host tryout camps?
I’ve never heard of the CBOA but it’s likely just an educational/professional organization and not one that has any assigning functions. “Association” has many different meanings in officiating.

College games are often assigned very differently from high school (depending on which state you work high school in). You’re not going to get a college schedule of any significance without going to camp, no matter the level. For D3, just in this thread there have been postings about the Super Camp in Richmond. There’s also a JUCO camp discussed in this thread.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 06, 2018, 09:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Is it the same way in D3 basketball? If it is, the scale of meat market behavior might be less, but I could be mistaken. AFAIK, CBOA (the men's college basketball association on the east coast) uses an application process rather than a specific recruiting camp, so how are officials seen for that, and similar organizations, if they do not host tryout camps?
CBOA is an organization whose main claim to fame is the fact that they offer great officiating insurance at a cheap cost. However, not everyone on the East Coast who officiates college ball is required to be a member of it. I know that from Maine to Pennsylvania most assignors are members of it, however Ebersole isn't. And that man has a TON of games.

You don't need to worry about CBOA until you actually get picked up in a conference.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 07, 2018, 09:03am
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If you were to start or acquire a camp, what would you do differently than what you have experienced?
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 07, 2018, 02:27pm
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I thought CBOA was a bona fide association, like MBOA or Board 12, that sent assignments through Arbiter (or another website) to its members. This means I'll have to go to Ebersole's camp, or whatever camps MAC (the DIII conference), Centennial, Landmark, etc., use to recruit officials, if I want to work college basketball.

If I started a camp, I'd have classroom sessions and games for both those who want to attend a teaching camp, and those who want to try out for my conference. This way, both those who want to learn more about officiating and those who want to attend to try out would be able to gain a positive learning experience. Existing staff would be able to attend at a discount (or for free, if they have other discounts, or get a scholarship). The only difference between "students" and "candidates" would be that candidates would be evaluated and considered for jobs, whereas "students" would just be evaluated. Candidates (those who try out) and students (those who want to attend a teaching camp) would pay the same fee, and would indicate if they want to try out in their application. Candidates would also have a separate meeting about conference logistics, how they would be informed, etc.

I would also ask the tournament director to have the games follow college rules as much as possible (to get candidates experience working college-type games with college mechanics), if my camp was associated with a college conference. For those not familiar with college, I would explain the major rules/mechanics differences at the start of the first day, and include reminders in the informational packet/notes for my campers to reference.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 07, 2018, 02:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
I thought CBOA was a bona fide association, like MBOA or Board 12, that sent assignments through Arbiter (or another website) to its members. This means I'll have to go to Ebersole's camp, or whatever camps MAC (the DIII conference), Centennial, Landmark, etc., use to recruit officials, if I want to work college basketball.

If I started a camp, I'd have classroom sessions and games for both those who want to attend a teaching camp, and those who want to try out for my conference. This way, both those who want to learn more about officiating and those who want to attend to try out would be able to gain a positive learning experience. Existing staff would be able to attend at a discount (or for free, if they have other discounts, or get a scholarship). The only difference between "students" and "candidates" would be that candidates would be evaluated and considered for jobs, whereas "students" would just be evaluated. Candidates (those who try out) and students (those who want to attend a teaching camp) would pay the same fee, and would indicate if they want to try out in their application. Candidates would also have a separate meeting about conference logistics, how they would be informed, etc.

I would also ask the tournament director to have the games follow college rules as much as possible (to get candidates experience working college-type games with college mechanics), if my camp was associated with a college conference. For those not familiar with college, I would explain the major rules/mechanics differences at the start of the first day, and include reminders in the informational packet/notes for my campers to reference.
Supervisors aren't really concerned about rules differences when running their camps. They also don't need to look at you more than 5-10 minutes to decide if they are interested in hiring you.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 07, 2018, 03:43pm
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That's surprising, because supervisors are hiring officials for a specific task: officiating men's (or women's) college basketball. An official moving from D3 to D2 or D1, or laterally (from another area of the country) is familiar with how college basketball works, but someone who has never worked college basketball may only know what is printed in the "major rules differences" table in the NFHS or NCAA rulebooks. Thus, a new (er) college official may make mistakes by calling a high school rule in a college game (e.g. closely guarded on a dribble), which could be embarrassing if they happened in a regular-season game. Challenging an official to work out of his comfort zone (using college rules for a high school official) can also assess how good an official is at thinking on his feet, and how quick of a learner he is.

I could see your point, if supervisors just assessed a prospect very generally at camps (does he look like an official, can he move on the court, can he officiate), and then teach more specific stuff at scrimmages to whoever gets hired to the staff that year.

How would I find out which college supervisors have camps and are hiring, if, a few years down the road, I wanted to do the Landmark, or Centennial Conference, or MAC? I know that PhillyRef lists camps, but is stuff like who's hiring or where to go public knowledge for officials?
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 07, 2018, 04:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
....

How would I find out which college supervisors have camps and are hiring, if, a few years down the road, I wanted to do the Landmark, or Centennial Conference, or MAC? I know that PhillyRef lists camps, but is stuff like who's hiring or where to go public knowledge for officials?
If a camp is run by a college supervisor, it's a hiring camp, no matter what platitudes are printed in the brochures. You need to (on your own) learn who the college supervisors are in your area of travel. There is no magic starter kit.

Where you live, you need to concentrate on Tim Ebersole and Donnie Eppley for entry level to the college world. If you can travel a little bit, then add Gregg Bennett (ODAC/D3 Super Camp) to that list.

As I have stated before, for the best instructional camps, you need to go to a camp run by NBA officials. If you want training and some insight to what the college world will be like, then D3 Super Camp would be good for you. If you are strictly trying to get hired, then Ebersole/Eppley.

If you have a budget you are trying to adhere to, stay away from D1 camps b/c they are all going to run you at least $500, plus most likely lodging.

You want my personal advice for this off-season. Attend a HS camp affiliated with Al Battista (MBOA/BD12?) and Joey Crawford's Villanova camp (same weekend as D3 Super Camp). Then find another affordable camp. Don't do more than 3 camps.
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