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  #76 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 14, 2018, 10:23am
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Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
Wouldn't that be nice to know if it was a teaching camp or not? If only you could ask or reference that.
I guess that depends on what you consider a "teaching camp." Rarely are camps run by a college supervisor where they hire mainly from their camps, are what I would call "teaching camps" from my experience. You will still learn some things, but they are not going to teach you for example 3 person if you have never done it before. They will not teach you even many mechanics if you are not familiar with them. They might address those things, but they are not going to stop the games to show you were to stand on a play. They expect you to know those things.

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Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
Would you rather make an investment in a camp based or one or two people you have never met (ignoring the fact that there are people here who are respected in this field) or based nothing but maybe the camp flyer?
Is this what mentors are for? You do not have people in your life to bounce off these things with? I know I have met some people here over the years from camps, but I would not call those people someone I mentored their career. And that is why it is also valuable to have a mentor at the level that you are trying to get access to. There might be one person on this site that I would actually listen to about any camp on listed on this site and I would pick up the phone and call them to get that information. Nothing against people here for the most part, but not everyone is where I am or where I am trying to go. Maybe I am old school, I think talking to someone directly is much more valuable than doing everything online or through some detached social media platform.

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Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
You don't have to participate but there is still value to others even if you don't see it.
You responded to me. I was giving my opinion. Now if you want those type of reviews, then wait for those to be posted.

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  #77 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 14, 2018, 11:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
If I understand things correctly, the rules test that I would take on the NCAA Basketball Arbiter Central Hub is just for tournament purposes, and has no effect on the regular season? I'm not trying to be stupid on purpose, I'm trying to understand how the college world works, what is the same as high school, and what isn't.
The extent to which college is different than high school depends heavily on where you officiate high school. In college every league hires its own assigner that you have to get hired by, normally by going to camp. Some assigners have one league, some have a bunch. Some high school areas work like this, or you might be in a state where an association assigns games for a geographic region, and the only way to work games is to be a member of that association.

One thing is for sure, though. In many states (mine being one of them), how you perform on a rules exam is very important. In college, you won’t even take an exam unless you are registering with the NCAA, as you noted. Anyone can register with the NCAA, regardless of whether you are “in contention” for the postseason or not. And, as noted, college assigners are very unlikely to give a damn about how well you are capable of doing on a rules exam. It’s an “unwritten rule” of college officiating that you know and are able to apply the rules on your own.
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 14, 2018, 11:37am
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
It’s an “unwritten rule” of college officiating that you know and are able to apply the rules on your own.
If you screw up a rule application in a college game, it is very likely you will be suspended by that conference for a game or two. And it does not always matter if you are the official that made the actual mistake. Crews have been changed based on rules mistakes in my experience. In a HS game, you can make a rules mistake and no one mentions such mistake unless the media gets wind of such mistake.

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  #79 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 14, 2018, 02:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
If I understand things correctly, the rules test that I would take on the NCAA Basketball Arbiter Central Hub is just for tournament purposes, and has no effect on the regular season? I'm not trying to be stupid on purpose, I'm trying to understand how the college world works, what is the same as high school, and what isn't.

...
How the college world works for a newcomer is that a college supervisor or one of his/her trust confidants need to see something in you that inspires confidence that you can be successful at that level. One thing that will drive them away is a bunch of peripheral questions.

As far as reviewing camps in the DMV, you live and work there, so you should be providing your own assessments for us here on camps with which you are familiar. And if you need additional information, you should be in communication with college officials in your area and get direct feedback from them based on their knowledge and experience.

On a side note, Tim Ebersole picked up the new D3 conference that was formed, Atlantic East Conference. So like the JuCo supervisor out of SC, Ebersole is going to be looking to bring in new officials. May behoove you to attend one of his myriad of camps this off-season.
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 14, 2018, 03:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
How the college world works for a newcomer is that a college supervisor or one of his/her trust confidants need to see something in you that inspires confidence that you can be successful at that level. One thing that will drive them away is a bunch of peripheral questions.

As far as reviewing camps in the DMV, you live and work there, so you should be providing your own assessments for us here on camps with which you are familiar. And if you need additional information, you should be in communication with college officials in your area and get direct feedback from them based on their knowledge and experience.

On a side note, Tim Ebersole picked up the new D3 conference that was formed, Atlantic East Conference. So like the JuCo supervisor out of SC, Ebersole is going to be looking to bring in new officials. May behoove you to attend one of his myriad of camps this off-season.
Understood. I don't know very many people offline (not good enough to ask for advice on camps), and that is why I'm asking the questions I am online. I've also only been to Level One Basketball Officials (the camp run by Que'z), which I posted a review for, when it comes specifically to basketball camps. I'll be away for most of June and July, but if Ebersole happens to have a camp in August (or later), I'll make sure to show up for that.
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 14, 2018, 03:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Understood. I don't know very many people offline (not good enough to ask for advice on camps), and that is why I'm asking the questions I am online. I've also only been to Level One Basketball Officials (the camp run by Que'z), which I posted a review for, when it comes specifically to basketball camps. I'll be away for most of June and July, but if Ebersole happens to have a camp in August (or later), I'll make sure to show up for that.
Why would you not be good enough to ask advice about a camp? I give advice to officials about camps all the time that are just starting. I give them the advice that fits their skill level to know what they are going to get into if going to a specific camp. For example, if you have never worked a varsity game, I might not tell you to go to a high-level college camp expecting to be hired at that level, but might tell you what you can learn from that camp.

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  #82 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 14, 2018, 03:43pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Why would you not be good enough to ask advice about a camp? I give advice to officials about camps all the time that are just starting. I give them the advice that fits their skill level to know what they are going to get into if going to a specific camp. For example, if you have never worked a varsity game, I might not tell you to go to a high-level college camp expecting to be hired at that level, but might tell you what you can learn from that camp.

Peace
I meant that I might not know people well enough to ask them about camps. Sorry for my wording being confusing.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 14, 2018, 03:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
I meant that I might not know people well enough to ask them about camps. Sorry for my wording being confusing.
Then just ask someone and let their answer lead you. They might give you the names of the people that know more than them.

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  #84 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 14, 2018, 04:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
I meant that I might not know people well enough to ask them about camps. Sorry for my wording being confusing.
Your assigner? Someone in your association? (I recognize that different areas do things differently, so these might not work directly for you.)
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 14, 2018, 04:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
I meant that I might not know people well enough to ask them about camps. Sorry for my wording being confusing.
All the Beltway boards have plenty of access to college officials. There is no bigger camp gym rat than Al Battista, and he does a lot of interaction with MD high school officials.
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 14, 2018, 06:16pm
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I am a bit late in responding to the OP however...

Generally speaking.. "teaching camps" are for people who want to become a HS Varsity official or hone their skills as a HS Varsity official. Any local association or state association should be able to provide a small list of these types of camps. Most are run by very experienced HS Varsity officials and association leaders. College camps, most often, will tout being a great way to "learn" or even use the words "teaching camp" but in reality they are merely meat markets for college assignors. Some things can be learned, but very little, presuming you have experience before going to a college camp. College assigners want your money, not to teach you things they know. After all, the last thing they want is for you to take their place.

(BTW, if attending a college camp, never ask any clinician/assigner a question. If desperate, ask another camper. OTOH, if at a HS camp, ask away)
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 14, 2018, 06:20pm
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Originally Posted by bucky View Post
(BTW, if attending a college camp, never ask any clinician/assigner a question. If desperate, ask another camper. OTOH, if at a HS camp, ask away)
This is a ridiculous overgeneralization. Sure, you don't want to bother the clinicians with incessant questions while they're trying to do their job, but there's nothing wrong with asking for clarification or additional feedback when the opportunity presents itself.
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 15, 2018, 08:15am
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Originally Posted by bucky View Post
....

(BTW, if attending a college camp, never ask any clinician/assigner a question. If desperate, ask another camper. OTOH, if at a HS camp, ask away)
Huh? Where did you come up with that?

Of course you ask questions. What you don't do is bother a clinician when he/she is actively engaged in trying to observe another crew.
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Last edited by Raymond; Tue May 15, 2018 at 10:02am.
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 15, 2018, 09:35am
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Originally Posted by bucky View Post
(BTW, if attending a college camp, never ask any clinician/assigner a question. If desperate, ask another camper. OTOH, if at a HS camp, ask away)
I totally disagree. I have asked clinicians at very high levels questions and they will almost always answer. There is a time and place for questions in may situations for sure. If they are giving instruction on a court, that is not the time to ask questions. But if they are not observing at the moment or they want to know more about you, it is very appropriate to ask questions.

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  #90 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 24, 2018, 08:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Supervisors aren't really concerned about rules differences when running their camps. They also don't need to look at you more than 5-10 minutes to decide if they are interested in hiring you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
I thought CBOA was a bona fide association, like MBOA or Board 12, that sent assignments through Arbiter (or another website) to its members. This means I'll have to go to Ebersole's camp, or whatever camps MAC (the DIII conference), Centennial, Landmark, etc., use to recruit officials, if I want to work college basketball.

If I started a camp, I'd have classroom sessions and games for both those who want to attend a teaching camp, and those who want to try out for my conference. This way, both those who want to learn more about officiating and those who want to attend to try out would be able to gain a positive learning experience. Existing staff would be able to attend at a discount (or for free, if they have other discounts, or get a scholarship). The only difference between "students" and "candidates" would be that candidates would be evaluated and considered for jobs, whereas "students" would just be evaluated. Candidates (those who try out) and students (those who want to attend a teaching camp) would pay the same fee, and would indicate if they want to try out in their application. Candidates would also have a separate meeting about conference logistics, how they would be informed, etc.

I would also ask the tournament director to have the games follow college rules as much as possible (to get candidates experience working college-type games with college mechanics), if my camp was associated with a college conference. For those not familiar with college, I would explain the major rules/mechanics differences at the start of the first day, and include reminders in the informational packet/notes for my campers to reference.
Well, the Big Ten Men's Consortium Camp uses full NCAA rules for its games (the only exception to that is the restricted area). I got that information from an official from Indiana who was invited to attend by Larry Scirotto (disclosure: he did not work any games, but he observed those who did). This official also told me that 32 campers were sent home for not stopping the game clock when calling fouls and violations, which is a point of emphasis in NFHS and NCAAM basketball. If the Big Ten uses NCAA rules for its camp, I wouldn't be surprised if other DI camps also used NCAA rules.

Perhaps the Big Ten Consortium Camp does this because the officials who attend it are already familiar with NCAA rules from working JUCO, NAIA, DIII ,and DII games, but it would not be a bad idea to expose officials at a JUCO/DIII camp to college rules, and see how they apply those rules in game situations. It will allow evaluators to see how willing and able are the officials at camp to learn new rules, apply them, and think on their feet in unfamiliar situations (using NCAA rules for a HS official).
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