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A-hole formerly known as BNR |
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Definitions ...
Show me a NFHS definition of ball at disposal (after a goal) that does not include the word count. I'm sure that judgment is utilized, but the rulebook doesn't include that aspect for definition purposes.
Rule 4 is all about definitions: 4-4-7-d: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is: Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count. A more practical definition my include proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc., but the actual definition doesn't include these practical aspects of disposal. By NFHS definition, how does an official deem, or judge, (other than common, practical sense) that the ball is at the disposal? Citation please. 4-7: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is: a. Handed to a thrower or free thrower. b. Caught by a player after it is bounced to him/her. c. Placed on the floor at the spot. d. Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count. Note the word "and". You can't have disposal without counting. And you don't start a count until you deem disposal (by beginning the throwin count). 4-42-3: The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to it.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jan 01, 2018 at 02:42pm. |
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A-hole formerly known as BNR |
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Garbage Disposal ...
Agree. A judgment that should be based on a definition of disposal (after a goal) involving proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc., but the NFHS does not provide us with any such parameters. The NFHS leaves us with no definition of disposal (after a goal) that doesn't involve counting.
We don't just judge that goaltending occurs, we have a detailed six part definition of goaltending. We have no such detailed definition of disposal (after a goal). Rookie Official: "Hey BillyMac. I'm studying for my annual, written, refresher exam. When do I start my five second count after a goal?" BillyMac: "When the ball is a the inbounder's disposal." Rookie Official: "How do I know when the ball is at the inbounder's disposal?" BillyMac: "When you start your five second count." Rookie Official: "Hey BillyMac. I'm having trouble figuring out when to allow a team that scored to request and be granted a timeout after they score a goal. When is it too late to allow such a timeout to be granted?" BillyMac: "When you start your five second count." Rookie Official: "How do I know when to start my five second count?" BillyMac: "When the ball is a the inbounder's disposal." Rookie Official: "How do I know when the ball is at the inbounder's disposal?" BillyMac: "When you start your five second count." And ... scene.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) |
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When a coach asks me I'm going to say when I deem the ball to be available to the thrower in. Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk
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With Apologies To Admiral David Farragut ...
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Like you, I have to because the NFHS definition is so unbelievably poor. But by the rulebook definition alone, determining disposal after a goal is an exercise in circular reasoning. To dispute my last statement please show me a rulebook citation that includes parameters such as proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc., in determining disposal after a goal. Such citations don't exist, but you're welcome to try. Citation please. Sometimes we just have to officiate. That's why we get paid the big bucks. Damn the rules. Damn the definitions. Full speed ahead.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jan 01, 2018 at 03:19pm. |
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The officials who make the really really big bucks are the ones who learned how to use their judgement in a common sense way when something is not spelled out explicitly in the rulebook. Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk
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A-hole formerly known as BNR |
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Judgment ...
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4-4-7-D, and 4-42-3, on their own, with no further explanation beyond the actual written rules, as they presently exist, are perfect examples of circular reasoning.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jan 01, 2018 at 03:38pm. |
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Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael Mick Chambers (1947-2010) |
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Science book: Mix two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen to make water.
BM: But, what if you mix one part oxygen with two parts hydrogen? I'm going to post this incessantly on scienceforum.com. Silly science book editor. |
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Circular Reasoning ...
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I was challenged about my statement that the rules themselves, as written, are a great examples of circular reasoning, still stand by my statement, and haven't seen any citations that reverse that statement.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jan 01, 2018 at 10:33pm. |
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Sally Always Tells The Truth, She Told Us That She Always Tell The Truth ...
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Example: How do you know the rock layers are old? Because the fossils in them are old. How do you know the fossils are old? Because the rock that contains them are old. (A common challenge to scientists by those who believe that the Earth is only a few thousand years old.) Once anything else is added to the circular reasoning loop, it begins to make more sense. Add a little knowledge about how rock layers form and how evolution occurs, and determining the age of rocks and fossils makes more sense. Add a little knowledge (intent and purpose) about what disposal means in the game of basketball (proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc.), and defining what disposal means makes more sense. My point throughout this entire thread is that the rules (alone, as written) regarding disposal are a good example of circular reasoning. Add anything (intent and purpose) to this circular reasoning loop takes us outside the loop and it no longer remains circular reasoning, and thus, is no longer flawed.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jan 01, 2018 at 10:51pm. |
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Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael Mick Chambers (1947-2010) |
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Assuming ...
I don't have to split any hairs to prove my statement that the rules, as written, are a perfect examples of circular reasoning. Assuming one knows exactly what circular reasoning is, just read the rules. No judgment is required to prove my statement, but judgment is required to understand what disposal really means in order to properly officiate a basketball game. One can't just learn the rules regarding such in a vacuum, intent and purpose are required.
Circular reasoning is often of the form: "A is true because B is true; B is true because A is true." 4-4-7-d: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is: Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count. 4-42-3: The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to it. Just read the three statements above, nothing more (pretend you're from another galaxy and don't know anything about the game of basketball), no purpose and intent, and tell me this isn't a pretty good example of circular reasoning.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jan 01, 2018 at 10:51pm. |
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I let them play on in that moment because: player had both feet OB. Possession not required for throw in after made basket and accidents count. He fumbled it because he was in a hurry to avoid pressure. He wasn't just trying to grab it ...had just started my count. Weird play.
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