Made basket/throw in

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree in practice, but that's not what the written rule states.

4-4-7-d: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is: Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

Without a count, there is no disposal.

Again, the count is the visual indicator that the official has deemed the ball to be at the disposal of the thrower in. An official starts his count when in his judgement the ball is at the disposal of the thrower-in. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I don't see what's so hard to understand about that.

Show me a NFHS definition of ball at disposal (after a goal) that does not include the word count. I'm sure that judgment is utilized, but the rulebook doesn't include that aspect for definition purposes.

Rule 4 is all about definitions:

4-4-7-d: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is: Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

A more practical definition my include proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc., but the actual definition doesn't include these practical aspects of disposal.

By NFHS definition, how does an official deem, or judge, (other than common, practical sense) that the ball is at the disposal? Citation please.

4-7: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is:
a. Handed to a thrower or free thrower.
b. Caught by a player after it is bounced to him/her.
c. Placed on the floor at the spot.
d. Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

Note the word "and". You can't have disposal without counting.

And you don't start a count until you deem disposal (by beginning the throwin count).

4-42-3: The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the
disposal of a player of the team entitled to it.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Show me a NFHS definition of ball at disposal that does not include the word count. I'm sure that judgment is utilized, but the rulebook doesn't include that aspect for definition purposes.

Rule 4 is all about definitions:

4-4-7-d: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is: Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

A more practical definition my include proximity to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc., but the actual definition doesn't include these practical aspects of disposal.

Are you missing a part where I said when the official counts that means he judges the ball is at the disposal of the team? Disposal is a judgement. Officials are the ones who make the judgement. Not everything is a scientific equation.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Disposal is a judgment.

Agree. A judgment that should be based on a definition of disposal (after a goal) involving proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc., but the NFHS does not provide us with any such parameters. The NFHS leaves us with no definition of disposal (after a goal) that doesn't involve counting.

We don't just judge that goaltending occurs, we have a detailed six part definition of goaltending. We have no such detailed definition of disposal (after a goal).

Rookie Official: "Hey BillyMac. I'm studying for my annual, written, refresher exam. When do I start my five second count after a goal?"
BillyMac: "When the ball is a the inbounder's disposal."
Rookie Official: "How do I know when the ball is at the inbounder's disposal?"
BillyMac: "When you start your five second count."

Rookie Official: "Hey BillyMac. I'm having trouble figuring out when to allow a team that scored to request and be granted a timeout after they score a goal. When is it too late to allow such a timeout to be granted?"
BillyMac: "When you start your five second count."
Rookie Official: "How do I know when to start my five second count?"
BillyMac: "When the ball is a the inbounder's disposal."
Rookie Official: "How do I know when the ball is at the inbounder's disposal?"
BillyMac: "When you start your five second count."

And ... scene.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree. A judgment that should be based on a definition of disposal (after a goal) involving proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc., but the NFHS does not provide us with any such parameters. The NFHS leaves us with no definition of disposal (after a goal) that doesn't involve counting.

We don't just judge that goaltending occurs, we have a detailed six part definition of goaltending. We have no such detailed definition of disposal (after a goal).

Rookie Official: "Hey BillyMac. I'm studying for my annual, written, refresher exam. When do I start my five second count after a goal?"
BillyMac: "When the ball is a the inbounder's disposal."
Rookie Official: "How do I know when the ball is at the inbounder's disposal?"
BillyMac: "When you start your five second count."

Rookie Official: "Hey BillyMac. I'm having trouble figuring out when to allow a team that scored to request and be granted a timeout after they score a goal. When is it too late to allow such a timeout to be granted?"
BillyMac: "When you start your five second count."
Rookie Official: "How do I know when to start my five second count?"
BillyMac: "When the ball is a the inbounder's disposal."
Rookie Official: "How do I know when the ball is at the inbounder's disposal?"
BillyMac: "When you start your five second count."

And ... scene.

Next time I coach asks you when you start your count, give them that soliloquy.

When a coach asks me I'm going to say when I deem the ball to be available to the thrower in.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Next time I coach asks you when you start your count, give them that soliloquy. When a coach asks me I'm going to say when I deem the ball to be available to the thrower in.

I never said that I don't use parameters outside the definition (proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc.), to practically deem, or practically judge, disposal (after a goal).

Like you, I have to because the NFHS definition is so unbelievably poor.

But by the rulebook definition alone, determining disposal after a goal is an exercise in circular reasoning.

To dispute my last statement please show me a rulebook citation that includes parameters such as proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc., in determining disposal after a goal.

Such citations don't exist, but you're welcome to try. Citation please.

Sometimes we just have to officiate. That's why we get paid the big bucks. Damn the rules. Damn the definitions. Full speed ahead.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I never said that I don't use parameters outside the definition (proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc.), to practically deem, or practically judge, disposal (after a goal).

Like you, I have to because the NFHS definition is so unbelievably poor.

But by the rulebook definition alone, determining disposal after a goal is an exercise in circular reasoning.

To dispute my last statement please show me a rulebook citation that includes parameters such as proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc., in determining disposal after a goal.

Such citations don't exist, but you're welcome to try. Citation please.

Sometimes we just have to officiate. That's why we get paid the big bucks. Damn the rules. Damn the definitions. Full speed ahead.

You are allergic to the word "judgment". The rule says "available and the referee begins his count". That means somebody has to judge when it's available. Last I checked judgement belongs to officials, not players and not coaches.

The officials who make the really really big bucks are the ones who learned how to use their judgement in a common sense way when something is not spelled out explicitly in the rulebook.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

The officials who make the really really big bucks are the ones who learned how to use their judgment in a common sense way when something is not spelled out explicitly in the rulebook.

Agree 100%. And thanks for making my point for me. My point that the definition of disposal (after a goal) "is not spelled out explicitly in the rulebook", that the poor definition, as it presently exists, is an example of circular reasoning, and that to properly officiate situations involving disposal after a goal a good official must exercise judgment, probably observing things such as proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc.

4-4-7-D, and 4-42-3, on their own, with no further explanation beyond the actual written rules, as they presently exist, are perfect examples of circular reasoning.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree 100%. And thanks for making my point for me. My point that the definition of disposal (after a goal) "is not spelled out explicitly in the rulebook", that the poor definition, as it presently exists, is an example of circular reasoning, and that to properly officiate situations involving disposal after a goal a good official must exercise judgment, probably observing things such as proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc.

4-4-7-D, and 4-42-3, on their own, with no further explanation beyond the actual written rules, as they presently exist, are perfect examples of circular reasoning.

Maybe for someone in your profession, but for most of us, we are not trying to parse words that deep. It is not defined any more than it needs to be IMO. There is also many interpretations and practice that suggest that if they have the ability to get to the ball, the ball is at their disposal. Of course, there are not always clear situations when that is all the time, but most officials I know give teams every opportunity to get the ball before starting a count. I do not see why it needs more definition as this is done nearly 60-70 times a game on some level. I do not think most situations are a struggle to know when a team has the ball at their disposal. And if they are, they seem to know when the official starts their count.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Science book: Mix two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen to make water.

BM: But, what if you mix one part oxygen with two parts hydrogen? I'm going to post this incessantly on scienceforum.com. Silly science book editor.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... if they have the ability to get to the ball, the ball is at their disposal ... officials I know give teams every opportunity to get the ball before starting a count.

I am not advocating that the NFHS change their definition of disposal. All officials that know anything about the game (intent and purpose) know what disposal means (proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc.) even if it's not spelled out in the definition.

Originally Posted by Raymond

There is no circular reasoning to this.

I was challenged about my statement that the rules themselves, as written, are a great examples of circular reasoning, still stand by my statement, and haven't seen any citations that reverse that statement.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jerkins

Science book: Mix two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen to make water.

Circular reasoning alone is considered to be bad science, and, in general, a poor (flawed) way to explain things, anything, even situations not involving science, like basketball definitions.

Example: How do you know the rock layers are old? Because the fossils in them are old. How do you know the fossils are old? Because the rock that contains them are old. (A common challenge to scientists by those who believe that the Earth is only a few thousand years old.)

Once anything else is added to the circular reasoning loop, it begins to make more sense.

Add a little knowledge about how rock layers form and how evolution occurs, and determining the age of rocks and fossils makes more sense.

Add a little knowledge (intent and purpose) about what disposal means in the game of basketball (proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc.), and defining what disposal means makes more sense.

Originally Posted by Raymond

There is no circular reasoning to this.

My point throughout this entire thread is that the rules (alone, as written) regarding disposal are a good example of circular reasoning. Add anything (intent and purpose) to this circular reasoning loop takes us outside the loop and it no longer remains circular reasoning, and thus, is no longer flawed.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I am not advocating that the NFHS change their definition of disposal. All officials that know anything about the game (intent and purpose) know what disposal means (proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc.) even if it's not spelled out in the definition.

I was challenged about my statement that the rules themselves, as written, are a great examples of circular reasoning, still stand by my statement, and haven't seen any citations that reverse that statement.

OK, just seems like again you are splitting hairs with what is the ultimate discussion. This is a judgment call by the official in question and when they start a count, they have made it clear the ball is at the disposal of the thrower. Not much more to it than that.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... you are splitting hairs

I don't have to split any hairs to prove my statement that the rules, as written, are a perfect examples of circular reasoning. Assuming one knows exactly what circular reasoning is, just read the rules. No judgment is required to prove my statement, but judgment is required to understand what disposal really means in order to properly officiate a basketball game. One can't just learn the rules regarding such in a vacuum, intent and purpose are required.

Circular reasoning is often of the form: "A is true because B is true; B is true because A is true."

4-4-7-d: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is: Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

4-42-3: The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the
disposal of a player of the team entitled to it.

Just read the three statements above, nothing more (pretend you're from another galaxy and don't know anything about the game of basketball), no purpose and intent, and tell me this isn't a pretty good example of circular reasoning.

Originally Posted by Raymond

There is no circular reasoning to this.

[BigCat]

I let them play on in that moment because: player had both feet OB. Possession not required for throw in after made basket and accidents count. He fumbled it because he was in a hurry to avoid pressure. He wasn't just trying to grab it ...had just started my count. Weird play.