Made basket/throw in

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Show me a NFHS definition of ball at disposal that does not include the word count. I'm sure that judgment is utilized, but the rulebook doesn't include that aspect for definition purposes.

Rule 4 is all about definitions:

4-4-7-d: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is: Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

A more practical definition my include proximity to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc., but the actual definition doesn't include these practical aspects of disposal.

Are you missing a part where I said when the official counts that means he judges the ball is at the disposal of the team? Disposal is a judgement. Officials are the ones who make the judgement. Not everything is a scientific equation.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Disposal is a judgment.

Agree. A judgment that should be based on a definition of disposal (after a goal) involving proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc., but the NFHS does not provide us with any such parameters. The NFHS leaves us with no definition of disposal (after a goal) that doesn't involve counting.

We don't just judge that goaltending occurs, we have a detailed six part definition of goaltending. We have no such detailed definition of disposal (after a goal).

Rookie Official: "Hey BillyMac. I'm studying for my annual, written, refresher exam. When do I start my five second count after a goal?"
BillyMac: "When the ball is a the inbounder's disposal."
Rookie Official: "How do I know when the ball is at the inbounder's disposal?"
BillyMac: "When you start your five second count."

Rookie Official: "Hey BillyMac. I'm having trouble figuring out when to allow a team that scored to request and be granted a timeout after they score a goal. When is it too late to allow such a timeout to be granted?"
BillyMac: "When you start your five second count."
Rookie Official: "How do I know when to start my five second count?"
BillyMac: "When the ball is a the inbounder's disposal."
Rookie Official: "How do I know when the ball is at the inbounder's disposal?"
BillyMac: "When you start your five second count."

And ... scene.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree. A judgment that should be based on a definition of disposal (after a goal) involving proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc., but the NFHS does not provide us with any such parameters. The NFHS leaves us with no definition of disposal (after a goal) that doesn't involve counting.

We don't just judge that goaltending occurs, we have a detailed six part definition of goaltending. We have no such detailed definition of disposal (after a goal).

Rookie Official: "Hey BillyMac. I'm studying for my annual, written, refresher exam. When do I start my five second count after a goal?"
BillyMac: "When the ball is a the inbounder's disposal."
Rookie Official: "How do I know when the ball is at the inbounder's disposal?"
BillyMac: "When you start your five second count."

Rookie Official: "Hey BillyMac. I'm having trouble figuring out when to allow a team that scored to request and be granted a timeout after they score a goal. When is it too late to allow such a timeout to be granted?"
BillyMac: "When you start your five second count."
Rookie Official: "How do I know when to start my five second count?"
BillyMac: "When the ball is a the inbounder's disposal."
Rookie Official: "How do I know when the ball is at the inbounder's disposal?"
BillyMac: "When you start your five second count."

And ... scene.

Next time I coach asks you when you start your count, give them that soliloquy.

When a coach asks me I'm going to say when I deem the ball to be available to the thrower in.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Next time I coach asks you when you start your count, give them that soliloquy. When a coach asks me I'm going to say when I deem the ball to be available to the thrower in.

I never said that I don't use parameters outside the definition (proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc.), to practically deem, or practically judge, disposal (after a goal).

Like you, I have to because the NFHS definition is so unbelievably poor.

But by the rulebook definition alone, determining disposal after a goal is an exercise in circular reasoning.

To dispute my last statement please show me a rulebook citation that includes parameters such as proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc., in determining disposal after a goal.

Such citations don't exist, but you're welcome to try. Citation please.

Sometimes we just have to officiate. That's why we get paid the big bucks. Damn the rules. Damn the definitions. Full speed ahead.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I never said that I don't use parameters outside the definition (proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc.), to practically deem, or practically judge, disposal (after a goal).

Like you, I have to because the NFHS definition is so unbelievably poor.

But by the rulebook definition alone, determining disposal after a goal is an exercise in circular reasoning.

To dispute my last statement please show me a rulebook citation that includes parameters such as proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc., in determining disposal after a goal.

Such citations don't exist, but you're welcome to try. Citation please.

Sometimes we just have to officiate. That's why we get paid the big bucks. Damn the rules. Damn the definitions. Full speed ahead.

You are allergic to the word "judgment". The rule says "available and the referee begins his count". That means somebody has to judge when it's available. Last I checked judgement belongs to officials, not players and not coaches.

The officials who make the really really big bucks are the ones who learned how to use their judgement in a common sense way when something is not spelled out explicitly in the rulebook.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

The officials who make the really really big bucks are the ones who learned how to use their judgment in a common sense way when something is not spelled out explicitly in the rulebook.

Agree 100%. And thanks for making my point for me. My point that the definition of disposal (after a goal) "is not spelled out explicitly in the rulebook", that the poor definition, as it presently exists, is an example of circular reasoning, and that to properly officiate situations involving disposal after a goal a good official must exercise judgment, probably observing things such as proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc.

4-4-7-D, and 4-42-3, on their own, with no further explanation beyond the actual written rules, as they presently exist, are perfect examples of circular reasoning.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree 100%. And thanks for making my point for me. My point that the definition of disposal (after a goal) "is not spelled out explicitly in the rulebook", that the poor definition, as it presently exists, is an example of circular reasoning, and that to properly officiate situations involving disposal after a goal a good official must exercise judgment, probably observing things such as proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc.

4-4-7-D, and 4-42-3, on their own, with no further explanation beyond the actual written rules, as they presently exist, are perfect examples of circular reasoning.

Maybe for someone in your profession, but for most of us, we are not trying to parse words that deep. It is not defined any more than it needs to be IMO. There is also many interpretations and practice that suggest that if they have the ability to get to the ball, the ball is at their disposal. Of course, there are not always clear situations when that is all the time, but most officials I know give teams every opportunity to get the ball before starting a count. I do not see why it needs more definition as this is done nearly 60-70 times a game on some level. I do not think most situations are a struggle to know when a team has the ball at their disposal. And if they are, they seem to know when the official starts their count.

Peace