Made basket/throw in

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

The would-be thrower never truly had disposal.

4-4-7-d: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is: Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

Was the count started? That's the key.

Of course, this brings us back to the circular argument.

When is the ball at the disposal of the player? When the official starts his count.

When does the official start his count? When the ball is at the disposal of the player.

Go figure.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4-4-7-d: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is: Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

Was the count started? That's the key.

Of course, this brings us back to the circular argument.

When is the ball at the disposal of the player? When the official starts his count.

When does the official start his count? When the ball is at the disposal of the player.

Go figure.

The ball is that disposal of the thrower-in when the official judges it to be so. And when he so judges, then he begins his count. There is no circular reasoning to this.

The count is the visual indicator of the official's judgement.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

The ball is that disposal of the thrower-in when the official judges it to be so.

Agree in practice, but that's not what the written rule states.

4-4-7-d: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is: Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

Without a count, there is no disposal.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree in practice, but that's not what the written rule states.

4-4-7-d: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is: Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

Without a count, there is no disposal.

Again, the count is the visual indicator that the official has deemed the ball to be at the disposal of the thrower in. An official starts his count when in his judgement the ball is at the disposal of the thrower-in. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I don't see what's so hard to understand about that.

Show me a NFHS definition of ball at disposal (after a goal) that does not include the word count. I'm sure that judgment is utilized, but the rulebook doesn't include that aspect for definition purposes.

Rule 4 is all about definitions:

4-4-7-d: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is: Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

A more practical definition my include proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc., but the actual definition doesn't include these practical aspects of disposal.

By NFHS definition, how does an official deem, or judge, (other than common, practical sense) that the ball is at the disposal? Citation please.

4-7: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is:
a. Handed to a thrower or free thrower.
b. Caught by a player after it is bounced to him/her.
c. Placed on the floor at the spot.
d. Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

Note the word "and". You can't have disposal without counting.

And you don't start a count until you deem disposal (by beginning the throwin count).

4-42-3: The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the
disposal of a player of the team entitled to it.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Show me a NFHS definition of ball at disposal that does not include the word count. I'm sure that judgment is utilized, but the rulebook doesn't include that aspect for definition purposes.

Rule 4 is all about definitions:

4-4-7-d: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is: Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

A more practical definition my include proximity to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc., but the actual definition doesn't include these practical aspects of disposal.

Are you missing a part where I said when the official counts that means he judges the ball is at the disposal of the team? Disposal is a judgement. Officials are the ones who make the judgement. Not everything is a scientific equation.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Disposal is a judgment.

Agree. A judgment that should be based on a definition of disposal (after a goal) involving proximity of the ball to the inbounder, time that the ball is available, etc., but the NFHS does not provide us with any such parameters. The NFHS leaves us with no definition of disposal (after a goal) that doesn't involve counting.

We don't just judge that goaltending occurs, we have a detailed six part definition of goaltending. We have no such detailed definition of disposal (after a goal).

Rookie Official: "Hey BillyMac. I'm studying for my annual, written, refresher exam. When do I start my five second count after a goal?"
BillyMac: "When the ball is a the inbounder's disposal."
Rookie Official: "How do I know when the ball is at the inbounder's disposal?"
BillyMac: "When you start your five second count."

Rookie Official: "Hey BillyMac. I'm having trouble figuring out when to allow a team that scored to request and be granted a timeout after they score a goal. When is it too late to allow such a timeout to be granted?"
BillyMac: "When you start your five second count."
Rookie Official: "How do I know when to start my five second count?"
BillyMac: "When the ball is a the inbounder's disposal."
Rookie Official: "How do I know when the ball is at the inbounder's disposal?"
BillyMac: "When you start your five second count."

And ... scene.