6 on the Court -- unnoticed...

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Freddy

"If the entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live." I get that.
If, however, that entry were a sixth player and it was discovered after the next whistle?

Then it is too late to penalize the infraction, even though you know that it happened.
Keep this simple. A team member participates by becoming a player. The definition of a player is in the book along with how a team member becomes a player as well as ceases to be a player.
The six team members participating is a little cloudy because the extra member isn't a legal player, but is out on the floor when only players are permitted. That's actually the infraction and why we can't penalize when the ball isn't live such as during a lengthy susbstitution process with multiple members entering and exiting. We need a time when only players are allowed in order to penalize a non-player being on the court.
Certainly, there need to be clear demarcation points at which play starts and ends as well as for when it is too late to penalize things which happen yet were missed by the officials during the game. For participation, the NFHS has selected when the ball becomes live and dead as those points. Similar to correctable errors.
What you seem concerned about is the timing and want to penalize when the team members are still on the floor during the immediately ensuing dead ball period. It seems unfair to you as this point in time is so close to when the infraction occurred. So take it to the extreme. What about missing this during the final seconds of the second quarter and having it brought to your attention just prior to the jumpball for the first extra period? You obviously can't go back and you feel comfortable about that. Why? You know inherently there is a point at which it becomes too late, but you are just fuzzy as to when exactly that is.
For the NFHS, it is when the ball ceases being live. Now you know and need to make the mental shift to accept it.
That can be tough, but as I mentioned above, this is no different from the timeline for correctable errors. Once you pass the point of no return, it's over and you're done with it. It doesn't matter how soon after the deadline you catch the error or how egregious it was. Now apply the same mentality to six on the floor.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

For participation, the NFHS has selected when the ball becomes live and dead as those points.

I would love it if that was the case, but can you please cite a specific rule, or casebook play (other than the old casebook citation, 10.5.3)?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I would love it if that was the case, but can you please cite a specific rule, or casebook play (other than the old casebook citation, 10.5.3)?

I could cite several examples of play situations and their rulings, such as when the game begins, when a quarter begins, when a quarter ends, when a team may first utilize a time-out, etc. However, the individual situations aren't what's instructive. We are seeking the guiding principle for all such cases. So we need to inquire what they all have in common. The principle is that game play occurs during a live ball and has been halted when the ball is dead. You must understand this basic premise, first and foremost. After that everything else falls into place.

There is a slight caveat for the brief dead-ball period which occurs following a made goal. One could contend that game play is occurring during this timeframe or one could argue that players are merely positioning themselves for the coming start of game play with the ensuing throw-in. The rule seems to be a hold-over from the days when a jumpball was conducted following each made goal. It could be changed with minimal impact upon the overall rules.

For examples, ask yourself what to do if a team sends six out for the opening jump? When do personal fouls occur? When may personal fouls not occur ? (Caveat: foul on or by an airborne shooter following what?--a made goal.) Now consider the reason behind these answers. Grasp the WHY and you understand.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The principle is that game play occurs during a live ball and has been halted when the ball is dead.

So a sixth team member could be on the court during some dead balls (between free throws, or immediately after a goal, both dead ball situations), and you would simply send the sixth team member off the court without penalty because they are not, by your definition, participating?

(Note: I don't have an answer, I'm just asking.)

[Freddy]

Synthesizing all the present and past rules book and casebook references I could find, I derive this:
1. Sixth person discovered on the court prior to ball being made live: no penalty.
2. Sixth person discovered on the court while ball is live: team technical ("participating simultaneously", 10-2-12)
3. Sixth person discovered after that during dead ball: team technical ("participating simultaneously", 10-2-12)

Thus, a person can be "participating", as in this case, even though the ball is dead. Admittedly, without a definitive definition of "participating" by the NFHS, this could be a hard sell.

I'm really challenging the concept, seemingly based on logic and reason only and on no rule that I can find, that, "participating" is necessarily equivalent with "only while ball is live". The logical gymnastics necessary, as previously placed into evidence, without any clear expression from any rule reference only emboldens my challenge to what my beloved and respected NevadaRef presents. I do bow before him, but want to politely disagree until persuaded otherwise.
Aw heck, it's so pathetically rare of a chance that this would even happen in as game, why should I even bring it up?
I reserve the right to be wrong...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Freddy

... it's so pathetically rare of a chance that this would even happen in as game, why should I even bring it up?

“… not because they are easy, but because they are hard” (President John F. Kennedy, 1962)

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So a sixth team member could be on the court during some dead balls (between free throws, or immediately after a goal, both dead ball situations), and you would simply send the sixth team member off the court without penalty because they are not, by your definition, participating?

(Note: I don't have an answer, I'm just asking.)

Not quite.
While I firmly believe that the sixth individual is not participating under these circumstances and thus cannot be penalized under that specific rule, the sotuation could fall under the purview of a substitute technical foul for failure to report to the scorer or failure to be properly beckoned onto the court by an official.
This is exactly what I would use to justify a penalty after a made goal with the clock running and the ball dead prior to the ensuing throw-in. You don't know how the sixth man got out there, but this is a time during which he cannot have entered legally and he got out there somehow, so a penalty is justified.

On the other hand, following a made FT, he could have quickly zipped in from the table without you noticing and it would be inappropriate to penalize that. I you don't observe the entry, you need to be certain that it was illegal in order to penalize it.

The two separate rules for substitute technicals and six team members participating should cover all of the situations requiring a penalty.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Not quite.
This is exactly what I would use to justify a penalty after a made goal with the clock running and the ball dead prior to the ensuing throw-in. You don't know how the sixth man got out there, but this is a time during which he cannot have entered legally and he got out there somehow, so a penalty is justified.

Which player are you penalizing in that case?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Which player are you penalizing in that case?

Camron knows which questions to ask.

For those who don't know, his point is that a substitute technical is charged to the individual team member, not just the team, so the calling official must identify a specific offender.

I see three legit ways of determining this info.

1. Consult with the scorer who BY RULE is to track the team members who start the game and enter as substitutes. If he is doing this task, you can discern who was already in the game and who wasn't. If not, proceed to #2.

2. One of the six must now depart and go to the bench. Whack whomever the team elects to remove.

3. Sometimes they give it away. "Joey, what are you doing? You are out!" Whack that one.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

... failure to report to the scorer or failure to be properly beckoned onto the court by an official ... following a made FT, he could have quickly zipped in from the table without you noticing.

Multiple substitutions. All substitutes report and are legally beckoned. Extra team member is confused and stays on court, unnoticed by everybody. Ball put into play. Quick foul occurs. No substitutions. One and one free throws awarded. First free throw made. No substitutions. Extra team member discovered by officials (who don't know when the extra team member entered) during dead ball, clock stopped, after first free throw made while the ball is in the hands of the lead official.

What's the call?

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Which player are you penalizing in that case?

Ask the coach who was supposed to come out? (He said sarcastically.)

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Multiple substitutions. All substitutes report and are legally beckoned. Extra team member is confused and stays on court, unnoticed by everybody. Ball put into play. Quick foul occurs. No substitutions. One and one free throws awarded. First free throw made. No substitutions. Extra team member discovered by officials (who don't know when the extra team member entered) during dead ball, clock stopped, after first free throw made while in the hands of the lead official.

What's the call?

By rule no call can be made. The officials just messed up. Have the extra man removed before making the ball live again. This is no different from having a correctable error occur which is now too late to fix. Accept it and move on.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So a sixth team member could be on the court during some dead balls (between free throws, or immediately after a goal, both dead ball situations), and you would simply send the sixth team member off the court without penalty because they are not, by your definition, participating?

(Note: I don't have an answer, I'm just asking.)

You could T the 6th man up for illegally entering the court. Or you could figure out why random bench personnel jump on and off the court during dead balls in your games.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

You could T the 6th man up for illegally entering the court.

No you can't. How do we know who he is? He wasn't noticed until there was a dead ball between free throws, or immediately after a goal. Not reporting and/or not being beckoned is a individual substitute technical not a team technical and must be charged to an individual team member.

10-2 SUBSTITUTE TECHNICAL
A substitute shall not enter the court:
ART. 1 Without reporting to the scorer.
ART. 2 Without being beckoned by an official, except between quarters and
during time-outs.

Also, what did the substitute do wrong? In this multiple substitute situation, all substitutes reported to the scorer, and all were beckoned by an official.

Where's the illegal act for a 10-2 individual substitute penalty?

Nobody entered the court illegally, somebody stayed on the court illegally.

You can't make up stuff as you go along.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

No you can't. How do we know who he is? He wasn't noticed until there was a dead ball between free throws, or immediately after a goal. Not reporting and/or not being beckoned is a individual substitute technical not a team technical and must be charged to an individual team member.

10-2 SUBSTITUTE TECHNICAL
A substitute shall not enter the court:
ART. 1 Without reporting to the scorer.
ART. 2 Without being beckoned by an official, except between quarters and
during time-outs.

Also, what did the substitute do wrong? In this multiple substitute situation, all substitutes reported to the scorer, and all were beckoned by an official.

Where's the illegal act for a 10-2 individual substitute penalty?

Nobody entered the court illegally, somebody stayed on the court illegally.

You can't make up stuff as you go along.

You said the 6th player showed up only during dead balls (multiple times according your post), which mean he walked onto the court at some point. Why are players walking on and off the court and you're not noticing?

At some point you need to start officiating and quit letting this stuff happen.