Six on court

[letemplay]

I need help finding a ruling here: Penalty for 10-1-6 is a technical foul if team is detected using six players, but I can't seem to find a case play for what happens to action, points and/or fouls, that occurs during the time six were playing. EX: Following a first half timeout, A6 inbounds ball near bench area to A1 and play goes quickly to other end with A3 getting a layup. B is in process of inbounding when one official realizes there are six players for A, and calls a T, sending B to the ft line. Does basket by A3 count? Also, as a different sitch, A6 gets to his bench and sits down before official realizes, even though he's fairly certain what just happened. Is this past the time for "when detected" would apply?

[bob jenkins]

Play counts.

"Fairly certain" isn't certain enough.

[kk13]

Didn't a Sun Belt Conf. team win a game with 6 on the floor last year?

[letemplay]

Thanks, thought I remembered it that way, just not sure. The one cb play I could find (10.1.6a or b) did not describe any scoring.

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by kk13

Didn't a Sun Belt Conf. team win a game with 6 on the floor last year?

Yes... the game involved Western Kentucky if my memory serves. Just goes to show...even guys in the Big Time still have crazy stuff happen.

[BillyMac]

Here are some situations that are confusing me:

A) Head coach of Team B requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he immediately complains to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. The sole purpose of his timeout is to call attention to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six Team A members on the court before they head into their timeout huddle. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

B) Team B head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team A players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players and discovers that there are six Team A team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

C) Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, officials observe that Team A has six team members participating. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

D) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. Before bouncing the ball to the free thrower for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

E) The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

F) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. After bouncing the ball to the free thrower, and with the ball at the free thrower's disposal for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is live, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

G) Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. What’s the call?

[Scooby]

Very simply, when the official discovers 6 players on the floor, stop the play and assess the Technical Foul. You can not change action prior to the technical foul as you do not know when the sixth person cam onto the floor. If you knew you would have stopped it then.
A) T on A, B shoots 2 free throws, B's ball at the division line.
B) T on A, B shoots 2 free throws, B's ball at the division line.
C) T on A, B shoots 2 free throws, B's ball at the division line.
D) T on A, A shoots 1 Free throw with the lane cleared, B shoots 2 free throws, B's ball at the division line.
E) T on A, B shoots 2 free throws, B's ball at the division line.
F) T on A, A shoots 1 Free throw with the lane cleared, B shoots 2 free throws, B's ball at the division line.
G) T on A, B shoots 2 free throws, B's ball at the division line.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Scooby

Very simply, when the official discovers 6 players on the floor, stop the play and assess the Technical Foul.

I’m having problems fully understanding the administration of the 10-1-6 (more than five team members participating simultaneously) penalty. NFHS 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously. If discovered while being violated. This infraction is penalized if it is discovered by the officials while being violated, in other words, while more than five team members are currently participating as players in the game.

Here’s the only casebook play involving more than five team members participating simultaneously: 10.1.6 SITUATION: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court. RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

Here’s my problem. I wish that the NFHS was more definitive about what "participating" means, as well as what "while being violated" means. If there are six team members participating, does it matter whether, or not, the ball is dead, live, clock running, clock not running, or if there is, or isn't, a timeout (not an intermission)? What defines whether, or not, a player is participating? Does it have to be during a live ball, clock running, situation? Can it be during a live ball, clock stopped situation, i.e., ball at disposal of free throw shooter? Can it be during a dead ball, clock running situation, i.e. dead ball immediately after a made field goal? How about during a dead ball, clock stopped situation, i.e during a timeout?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

....
Here’s my problem. I wish that the NFHS was more definitive about what "participating" means, as well as what "while being violated" means. If there are six team members participating, does it matter whether, or not, the ball is dead, live, clock running, clock not running, or if there is, or isn't, a timeout (not an intermission)? What defines whether, or not, a player is participating? Does it have to be during a live ball, clock running, situation? Can it be during a live ball, clock stopped situation, i.e., ball at disposal of free throw shooter? Can it be during a dead ball, clock running situation, i.e. dead ball immediately after a made field goal? How about during a dead ball, clock stopped situation, i.e during a timeout?

If the clock is stopped most officials are going to assume the onus and kill the play (ball live at disposal of thrower) and get the player off the court. Most of these situations happen after subs have been beckoned.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Does it have to be during a live ball, clock running, situation? Can it be during a live ball, clock stopped situation, i.e., ball at disposal of free throw shooter? Can it be during a dead ball, clock running situation, i.e. dead ball immediately after a made field goal? How about during a dead ball, clock stopped situation, i.e during a timeout?

No, yes, yes, no.

In the latter, though, if you see that there are 6 just as they call a TO, then get the T. IF it's 6 coming out after the TO, get it fixed.

Use your knowledge and judgment to determine whether 6 were participating. Be sure about it before you issue the T. DOn't guess (even if the preponderance of the evidnece suggests it).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Use your knowledge and judgment to determine whether 6 were participating. Be sure about it before you issue the T. Don't guess (even if the preponderance of the evidence suggests it).

Good advice. So if one is sure that there were six participating, even as they are walking off the floor at the beginning of a timeout, then charge the technical foul?

Note that I highlighted "were" meaning that the official didn't actually catch them in the act.

What if they're walking off after the horn sounds to start an intermission, when all are bench personal, and none are players?

[letemplay]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Good advice. So if one is sure that there were six participating, even as they are walking off the floor at the beginning of a timeout, then charge the technical foul?

Note that I highlighted "were" meaning that the official didn't actually catch them in the act.

What if they're walking off after the horn sounds to start an intermission, when all are bench personal, and none are players?

Never saw an answer or explanation for Billy's last question here.