Ref kills live ball on inadvertent horn - sub?

[ballgame99]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Your first play is the OP.

In both, the rules are clear -- let the sub in -- no matter how "unfair" it might seem to you.

If you don't want to let the sub in, then don't blow your whistle to kill the play. Tell the shooter / inbounder to "play on."

No, the OP was an inadvertent horn; official kills FT attempt; then coach sends sub to table and gets them in. My first play is coach sends sub to table late, horn blows while FT is in process, official kills.

In the first play the play was dead regardless of the sub. In the second, the table is trying to get a late sub in the game.

Ok, so the table controls when subs are late and can come in then? If we let the horn just blow randomly to let players in the game we are living in a lawless society and it will be anarchy. And if I just tell them to "play on" and somebody travels or double dribbles because they are confused by the random horn, then I have a mess on my hands. I will go for law and order over that.

This happens maybe twice per season, so its not a huge deal either way I guess, but if you get a table that is out of control with the horn we need to address.

[Hartsy]

Constant horns from the clock operator and coaches or bookkeepers yelling "SUB!" are 2 things I could do without. Players need to be at the table before play is ready to resume, and if I have already waved in the sub there is no need for a horn.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Hartsy

Constant horns from the clock operator and coaches or bookkeepers yelling "SUB!" are 2 things I could do without. Players need to be at the table before play is ready to resume, and if I have already waved in the sub there is no need for a horn.

Wait for the horn and then the responsible official blows his/her whistle and beckons....on EVERY sub. There should be a horn whenever there's a substitute ready to report. If it doesn't come in a few seconds, then whistle the sub in without the horn and remind the timer that we need a horn.

I don't want the clock operator to think it's OK to NOT blow a horn. When I need it, there won't be one.

[Hartsy]

Originally Posted by Rich

Wait for the horn and then the responsible official blows his/her whistle and beckons....on EVERY sub. There should be a horn whenever there's a substitute ready to report. If it doesn't come in a few seconds, then whistle the sub in without the horn and remind the timer that we need a horn.

I don't want the clock operator to think it's OK to NOT blow a horn. When I need it, there won't be one.

IIRC, in Ohio a few years back there was a POE or some sort of directive from the state that clock operators were to NOT use the horn on subs when the officials are already taking care of business. Relatedly, the have been on us about overusing our whistles, not for fouls and violations, but in situations such as this. On the other hand I seem to recall something in the rulebooks that addresses the timer and use of the horn. Time to read!

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Hartsy

IIRC, in Ohio a few years back there was a POE or some sort of directive from the state that clock operators were to NOT use the horn on subs when the officials are already taking care of business. Relatedly, the have been on us about overusing our whistles, not for fouls and violations, but in situations such as this. On the other hand I seem to recall something in the rulebooks that addresses the timer and use of the horn. Time to read!

Ohio is in its own world with respect to mechanics and can't be used as an example elsewhere.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

No, the OP was an inadvertent horn; official kills FT attempt; then coach sends sub to table and gets them in. My first play is coach sends sub to table late, horn blows while FT is in process, official kills.

Same thing.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Same thing.

Bob, If there's not a scoring play in progress I'd like them to blow horn sooner than later. Just simpler to correct in my mind.

As far as sub question, If the ball is in the BC under no pressure I can and do say play on. But if it's in FC and horn blown I'll probably Kill it. Danger that someone froze. I know the rule says let them in but I will consider the circumstance. If home team coach yells sub and his scorer blows horn with ball in FC I will kill it and not let that sub in.

If it's just a screwup, or neutral table or for visitors I'd follow rule. I can think of two tables at this moment who will blow horn moment home coach yells sub. Visitors have to be at x etc. I just don't allow that if I'm worried the horn will have effect on play.

[BigCat]

[QUOTE=ballgame99;996551]

Ok, so the table controls when subs are late and can come in then? If we let the horn just blow randomly to let players in the game [COLOR="RoyalBlue"]we are living in a lawless society and it will be anarchy[/COLOR

Lawless society...Anarchy...😺.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

If you believe the clock operator is timing his horns to unfairly benefit one of the teams, you can have him or her replaced.