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Old Thu Jan 05, 2017, 02:48am
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Ref kills live ball on inadvertent horn - sub?

NFHS:

Official bounces the ball to FT shooter A1, who is shooting his last awarded FT. While A1 has the ball, the clock operator buzzes the horn. All 10 players stop in confusion. C blows his whistle and has the FT shooter give the ball to the L. The clock operator indicates that it was an inadvertent horn. As L, holding ball, prepares to administer the FT, B2 rushes to the table to sub. C blows his whistle and beckons B2 into the game.

Legal or illegal substitution?
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Old Thu Jan 05, 2017, 11:15am
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If the ball is dead and the clock is stopped when a sub reports, the sub comes in.
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Old Thu Jan 05, 2017, 11:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
NFHS:

Official bounces the ball to FT shooter A1, who is shooting his last awarded FT. While A1 has the ball, the clock operator buzzes the horn. All 10 players stop in confusion. C blows his whistle and has the FT shooter give the ball to the L. The clock operator indicates that it was an inadvertent horn. As L, holding ball, prepares to administer the FT, B2 rushes to the table to sub. C blows his whistle and beckons B2 into the game.

Legal or illegal substitution?
When a horn blows i will kill a play 9 times out of 10 because someone is going to get screwed up by it. If the ball becomes dead (i did not "ignore" the horn) subs should be let in. Having said that, I have killed a live ball and prevented a sub to come in from time to time. Not often, but some tables blow the horn the minute a coach yells "sub" with the kid nowhere near the reporting area.

I've killed the ball because of the horn but not allowed the sub in during that dead ball. That isn't your play. Technically, in high school, if i kill it i think i should let the sub in.
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Old Thu Jan 05, 2017, 11:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Legal or illegal substitution?
The sub is neither legal or illegal. If I stopped play because of an inadvertent horn, I would put back the ball in play with the same status of the sub when the horn was blown. So if subs could not come in when the horn went off, I would not allow a sub to come in after I have stopped play. But that is on the officials to ultimately decide. But I believe there is a case play that covers this, but I do not have that in front of me right now.

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Old Thu Jan 05, 2017, 12:01pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
But I believe there is a case play that covers this, but I do not have that in front of me right now.
Please post it if you find it.

I agree with Adam -- if the sub was otherwise allowed, the fact that there was a horn / IW does not restrict the sub.

NCAA could be different in the last minute (but not in this specific case, I don't think)
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Old Thu Jan 05, 2017, 12:11pm
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Please post it if you find it.

I agree with Adam -- if the sub was otherwise allowed, the fact that there was a horn / IW does not restrict the sub.

NCAA could be different in the last minute (but not in this specific case, I don't think)
The NCAA is specific about the last minute of the game will not allow subs on an inadvertent horn or whistle.

But if the situation is also not specifically addressed (if there is no interpretation or rule) then it is up to the officials (or Referee) to make that decision. But I would not allow a team to benefit by the mistake of the table.

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Old Thu Jan 05, 2017, 12:40pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
The NCAA is specific about the last minute of the game will not allow subs on an inadvertent horn or whistle.

But if the situation is also not specifically addressed (if there is no interpretation or rule) then it is up to the officials (or Referee) to make that decision. But I would not allow a team to benefit by the mistake of the table.

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(1) I know there's a difference between NCAAM and NCAAW on this (or at least there used to be), but I'm not sure it's not ALL IWs / horns that prohibit subs in the last minute.

(2) There is a specific rule in FED -- something along the lines of "other than the above (e.g., fist of multiple FTs, sub needing to wait for the clock to run), a sub is permitted anytime the ball is dead and the clock is stopped."
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Old Thu Jan 05, 2017, 01:44pm
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NCAA Men's A.Rs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
(1) I know there's a difference between NCAAM and NCAAW on this (or at least there used to be), but I'm not sure it's not ALL IWs / horns that prohibit subs in the last minute.
A.R. 45. After a successful field goal with 48 seconds left on the game clock, he timer sounds the game-clock horn for substitute A6 to enter the game.

Ruling: A6 shall not be permitted to enter. While the game clock is stopped after successful field goals in the last 59.9 seconds of play, only those substitutions permitted by rule are allowed. A team may request a timeout and then make substitutions anytime the ball is dead and the game clock is stopped. (Rule 3-6.1.h)

A.R. 46 gives a few more situations, but basically does not allow a sub in this situation unless a team requests a timeout. Otherwise, we ignore the horn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
(2) There is a specific rule in FED -- something along the lines of "other than the above (e.g., fist of multiple FTs, sub needing to wait for the clock to run), a sub is permitted anytime the ball is dead and the clock is stopped."
I do not totally disagree, just think that this is not a situation that is completely covered under the rules and the Referee can decide what is fair. I think you have to weigh who benefited from this and why they would benefit from this. If we have an IH, I would like to make the situation go back to normal as soon as possible and not allow a sub when we would not have had the horn. If there is a huge delay or something that might have nothing to do with a horn being blown inadvertently, then I would have no issue with the sub. This is why I tell tables to often do not blow the horn at all for subs. They will even blow the horn just because the coach says, "sub sub sub sub" and the player is not off the bench. I am not giving a sub just because the horn was blown. During a FT is a little bit more laid back period, but still want to keep the integrity of the action that took place.

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Old Thu Jan 05, 2017, 03:27pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
A.R. 45. After a successful field goal with 48 seconds left on the game clock, he timer sounds the game-clock horn for substitute A6 to enter the game.

Ruling: A6 shall not be permitted to enter. While the game clock is stopped after successful field goals in the last 59.9 seconds of play, only those substitutions permitted by rule are allowed. A team may request a timeout and then make substitutions anytime the ball is dead and the game clock is stopped. (Rule 3-6.1.h)

A.R. 46 gives a few more situations, but basically does not allow a sub in this situation unless a team requests a timeout. Otherwise, we ignore the horn.
yes, but that has nothing to do with the OP. In the OP, even if it happened in the last 59.9, the clock was stopped for the foul / FTs and not for a made basket. All the restrictions on subs surround the made basket in the last 59.9 situations.
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Old Thu Jan 05, 2017, 03:30pm
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
yes, but that has nothing to do with the OP. In the OP, even if it happened in the last 59.9, the clock was stopped for the foul / FTs and not for a made basket. All the restrictions on subs surround the made basket in the last 59.9 situations.
I was only referencing this because you mentioned it. This is also not an NCAA situation. And I think the NCAA has changed a rule and created an A.R in order to address this situation specifically. I am not sure this is addressed in that kind of detail with the NF. I think there was a case play, but I am not sure if it is still valid or in the current books.

Also, we do have the right to ignore the horn. But that requires some judgment or a way to determine that players did not react. I have an older video with a situation where a horn was blown in the Big East Tournament and players hardly reacted.

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Old Thu Jan 05, 2017, 04:39pm
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I rarely react to these horns. I generally find it easier to ignore on free throws. Everyone looks at me, I say "play on", and the ball never becomes dead. Problem solved.

But if I do decide to kill it, anyone who gets to the table as a sub is coming in. I have no rules support for deviating from the normal substitution rules (NFHS).
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Old Thu Jan 05, 2017, 04:47pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I was only referencing this because you mentioned it. This is also not an NCAA situation. And I think the NCAA has changed a rule and created an A.R in order to address this situation specifically. I am not sure this is addressed in that kind of detail with the NF. I think there was a case play, but I am not sure if it is still valid or in the current books.
I agree it's not an NCAA situation.

I also claim that if it *were* an NCAA situation, that the ruling would be the same and that subs would be allowed in. And, I claim that this is covered by rule in both cases and that the official does not have any discretion to "make it fair" (or whatever specific words you used).

I also claim that your blanket statement, "The NCAA is specific about the last minute of the game will not allow subs on an inadvertent horn or whistle" is false. There are times -- most times -- where the sub is allowed. If you didn't mean it as a blanket statement, then I post my clarification only for those who might mistakenly read it that way.

(And, I'm still waiting for the case play you mentioned back in post #4)
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Old Thu Jan 05, 2017, 04:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post

(And, I'm still waiting for the case play you mentioned back in post #4)
Hold your breath. I'm sure the answer is coming. That's if your not dead from hokding your breath about the throw in play that allows defender to stand in certain place. Rip Bob.
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Old Thu Jan 05, 2017, 04:54pm
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For NFHS the rule is simple and clear. If the clock is stopped and the ball is dead, then a properly reported or reporting substitute shall be allowed into the game, barring the restrictions for multiple throw FTs and previously exiting players when the clock has not yet run.

Preventing a legal substitution in an NFHS contest is just making up your own rules. Quality officials don't do that.
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Old Fri Jan 06, 2017, 10:09am
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In the OP, let's say the sub doesn't make it to the table before we have provided it to the shooter, but the table goes ahead and blows while it is at the disposal of the shooter. I've had vet partners who go ahead and kill it, but don't let the sub in.

Same thing if the sub doesn't get to the table before we hand it to the inbounder and the horn sounds during the inbound, or even right after the inbounds. I've had partners kill the play but not allow the sub.

I tend to agree with the thinking behind this; if the sub didn't make it in time, the table can't just blow the horn and stop play whenever they feel like it. This would be ripe for abuse by a friendly home table. While there may not be rules justification for this, it seems to be fair to all parties.

In the OP, if it truly was an inadvertent horn, and the coach sneaks a sub up there, I'm fine with that.
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