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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 06, 2017, 10:17am
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Originally Posted by ballgame99 View Post
In the OP, let's say the sub doesn't make it to the table before we have provided it to the shooter, but the table goes ahead and blows while it is at the disposal of the shooter. I've had vet partners who go ahead and kill it, but don't let the sub in.

Same thing if the sub doesn't get to the table before we hand it to the inbounder and the horn sounds during the inbound, or even right after the inbounds. I've had partners kill the play but not allow the sub.

I tend to agree with the thinking behind this; if the sub didn't make it in time, the table can't just blow the horn and stop play whenever they feel like it. This would be ripe for abuse by a friendly home table. While there may not be rules justification for this, it seems to be fair to all parties.

In the OP, if it truly was an inadvertent horn, and the coach sneaks a sub up there, I'm fine with that.
Your first play is the OP.

In both, the rules are clear -- let the sub in -- no matter how "unfair" it might seem to you.

If you don't want to let the sub in, then don't blow your whistle to kill the play. Tell the shooter / inbounder to "play on."
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 06, 2017, 11:32am
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I wouldn't ignore the horn as the table might be trying to inform us of an error. A correctable error (and who wants those) might be avoided if we blow the whistle.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 06, 2017, 11:54am
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Originally Posted by rbruno View Post
I wouldn't ignore the horn as the table might be trying to inform us of an error. A correctable error (and who wants those) might be avoided if we blow the whistle.
Yesterday, I was working as the clock operator in my son's middle school game and the officials (from my IAABO board) failed to award the 2nd free throw to the visiting team on the 8th foul. This was despite verbal confirmation between the table and the officials that there would be two shots. In addition, the lead official announced two shots when he bounced the ball to the shooter. So, when the home team grabbed the rebound of the missed first free throw, the visiting team coach and I were both surprised when the officials allowed the game to continue. When they crossed into the front court and were about to take a shot, the visiting coach was beside himself. So, I hit the horn hard and explained that they get one more free throw. So, the officials went back down to the other end and administeted the 2nd free throw. It ended up being a big play in the game.

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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 06, 2017, 11:59am
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Originally Posted by rbruno View Post
I wouldn't ignore the horn as the table might be trying to inform us of an error. A correctable error (and who wants those) might be avoided if we blow the whistle.
The official might be able to look at the table to assess what is happening (look for a sheepish grin, the "my bad" motion, waving the official to the table, etc.) And the table should wait until the ball is dead to signal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica View Post
Yesterday, I was working as the clock operator in my son's middle school game and the officials (from my IAABO board) failed to award the 2nd free throw to the visiting team on the 8th foul. This was despite verbal confirmation between the table and the officials that there would be two shots. In addition, the lead official announced two shots when he bounced the ball to the shooter. So, when the home team grabbed the rebound of the missed first free throw, the visiting team coach and I were both surprised when the officials allowed the game to continue. When they crossed into the front court and were about to take a shot, the visiting coach was beside himself. So, I hit the horn hard and explained that they get one more free throw. So, the officials went back down to the other end and administeted the 2nd free throw. It ended up being a big play in the game.

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I'm not sure why two FTs are awarded on the 8th foul, but even if there is an issue -- the table should wait until the ball is dead (in these instances).
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 06, 2017, 12:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
The official might be able to look at the table to assess what is happening (look for a sheepish grin, the "my bad" motion, waving the official to the table, etc.) And the table should wait until the ball is dead to signal.



I'm not sure why two FTs are awarded on the 8th foul, but even if there is an issue -- the table should wait until the ball is dead (in these instances).
Why wait? If they score and the ball is at the disposal of the thrower in, then we have passed the dead ball opportunity to correct the error, since the live ball was dead on the goal and live again. Plus, 2 points would be on the board that don't come off, even if the officials recognized the error somehow before the ball was at the disposal of the thrower in. The visiting team was in disarray because they expected another free throw. It would be patently unfair to allow the home team to take advantage of a correctable error once recognized. I chose to save the crew. The crew had no problem with me doing this. It prevented a potential Technical foul as well.

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 06, 2017, 12:28pm
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Originally Posted by Mbilica View Post
Why wait? If they score and the ball is at the disposal of the thrower in,
there's a timeframe in between those two events to sound the horn.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 06, 2017, 12:35pm
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My point is, allowing the score would have been unfair. It was 5 on 3.

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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 06, 2017, 12:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Your first play is the OP.

In both, the rules are clear -- let the sub in -- no matter how "unfair" it might seem to you.

If you don't want to let the sub in, then don't blow your whistle to kill the play. Tell the shooter / inbounder to "play on."
No, the OP was an inadvertent horn; official kills FT attempt; then coach sends sub to table and gets them in. My first play is coach sends sub to table late, horn blows while FT is in process, official kills.

In the first play the play was dead regardless of the sub. In the second, the table is trying to get a late sub in the game.

Ok, so the table controls when subs are late and can come in then? If we let the horn just blow randomly to let players in the game we are living in a lawless society and it will be anarchy. And if I just tell them to "play on" and somebody travels or double dribbles because they are confused by the random horn, then I have a mess on my hands. I will go for law and order over that.

This happens maybe twice per season, so its not a huge deal either way I guess, but if you get a table that is out of control with the horn we need to address.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 06, 2017, 01:28pm
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Constant horns from the clock operator and coaches or bookkeepers yelling "SUB!" are 2 things I could do without. Players need to be at the table before play is ready to resume, and if I have already waved in the sub there is no need for a horn.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 06, 2017, 01:52pm
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Originally Posted by ballgame99 View Post
No, the OP was an inadvertent horn; official kills FT attempt; then coach sends sub to table and gets them in. My first play is coach sends sub to table late, horn blows while FT is in process, official kills.
Same thing.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 06, 2017, 02:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Same thing.
Bob, If there's not a scoring play in progress I'd like them to blow horn sooner than later. Just simpler to correct in my mind.

As far as sub question, If the ball is in the BC under no pressure I can and do say play on. But if it's in FC and horn blown I'll probably Kill it. Danger that someone froze. I know the rule says let them in but I will consider the circumstance. If home team coach yells sub and his scorer blows horn with ball in FC I will kill it and not let that sub in.

If it's just a screwup, or neutral table or for visitors I'd follow rule. I can think of two tables at this moment who will blow horn moment home coach yells sub. Visitors have to be at x etc. I just don't allow that if I'm worried the horn will have effect on play.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 06, 2017, 03:08pm
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[QUOTE=ballgame99;996551]

Ok, so the table controls when subs are late and can come in then? If we let the horn just blow randomly to let players in the game [COLOR="RoyalBlue"]we are living in a lawless society and it will be anarchy[/COLOR

Lawless society...Anarchy...😺.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 08, 2017, 12:32pm
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If you believe the clock operator is timing his horns to unfairly benefit one of the teams, you can have him or her replaced.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 08, 2017, 01:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartsy View Post
Constant horns from the clock operator and coaches or bookkeepers yelling "SUB!" are 2 things I could do without. Players need to be at the table before play is ready to resume, and if I have already waved in the sub there is no need for a horn.
Wait for the horn and then the responsible official blows his/her whistle and beckons....on EVERY sub. There should be a horn whenever there's a substitute ready to report. If it doesn't come in a few seconds, then whistle the sub in without the horn and remind the timer that we need a horn.

I don't want the clock operator to think it's OK to NOT blow a horn. When I need it, there won't be one.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 08, 2017, 01:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica View Post
My point is, allowing the score would have been unfair. It was 5 on 3.

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The timer/scorer doesn't get to make that decision.
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