Ref kills live ball on inadvertent horn - sub?

[bucky]

NFHS:

Official bounces the ball to FT shooter A1, who is shooting his last awarded FT. While A1 has the ball, the clock operator buzzes the horn. All 10 players stop in confusion. C blows his whistle and has the FT shooter give the ball to the L. The clock operator indicates that it was an inadvertent horn. As L, holding ball, prepares to administer the FT, B2 rushes to the table to sub. C blows his whistle and beckons B2 into the game.

Legal or illegal substitution?

[Adam]

If the ball is dead and the clock is stopped when a sub reports, the sub comes in.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bucky

NFHS:

Official bounces the ball to FT shooter A1, who is shooting his last awarded FT. While A1 has the ball, the clock operator buzzes the horn. All 10 players stop in confusion. C blows his whistle and has the FT shooter give the ball to the L. The clock operator indicates that it was an inadvertent horn. As L, holding ball, prepares to administer the FT, B2 rushes to the table to sub. C blows his whistle and beckons B2 into the game.

Legal or illegal substitution?

When a horn blows i will kill a play 9 times out of 10 because someone is going to get screwed up by it. If the ball becomes dead (i did not "ignore" the horn) subs should be let in. Having said that, I have killed a live ball and prevented a sub to come in from time to time. Not often, but some tables blow the horn the minute a coach yells "sub" with the kid nowhere near the reporting area.

I've killed the ball because of the horn but not allowed the sub in during that dead ball. That isn't your play. Technically, in high school, if i kill it i think i should let the sub in.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bucky

Legal or illegal substitution?

The sub is neither legal or illegal. If I stopped play because of an inadvertent horn, I would put back the ball in play with the same status of the sub when the horn was blown. So if subs could not come in when the horn went off, I would not allow a sub to come in after I have stopped play. But that is on the officials to ultimately decide. But I believe there is a case play that covers this, but I do not have that in front of me right now.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But I believe there is a case play that covers this, but I do not have that in front of me right now.

Please post it if you find it.

I agree with Adam -- if the sub was otherwise allowed, the fact that there was a horn / IW does not restrict the sub.

NCAA could be different in the last minute (but not in this specific case, I don't think)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Please post it if you find it.

I agree with Adam -- if the sub was otherwise allowed, the fact that there was a horn / IW does not restrict the sub.

NCAA could be different in the last minute (but not in this specific case, I don't think)

The NCAA is specific about the last minute of the game will not allow subs on an inadvertent horn or whistle.

But if the situation is also not specifically addressed (if there is no interpretation or rule) then it is up to the officials (or Referee) to make that decision. But I would not allow a team to benefit by the mistake of the table.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The NCAA is specific about the last minute of the game will not allow subs on an inadvertent horn or whistle.

But if the situation is also not specifically addressed (if there is no interpretation or rule) then it is up to the officials (or Referee) to make that decision. But I would not allow a team to benefit by the mistake of the table.

Peace

(1) I know there's a difference between NCAAM and NCAAW on this (or at least there used to be), but I'm not sure it's not ALL IWs / horns that prohibit subs in the last minute.

(2) There is a specific rule in FED -- something along the lines of "other than the above (e.g., fist of multiple FTs, sub needing to wait for the clock to run), a sub is permitted anytime the ball is dead and the clock is stopped."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

(1) I know there's a difference between NCAAM and NCAAW on this (or at least there used to be), but I'm not sure it's not ALL IWs / horns that prohibit subs in the last minute.

A.R. 45. After a successful field goal with 48 seconds left on the game clock, he timer sounds the game-clock horn for substitute A6 to enter the game.

Ruling: A6 shall not be permitted to enter. While the game clock is stopped after successful field goals in the last 59.9 seconds of play, only those substitutions permitted by rule are allowed. A team may request a timeout and then make substitutions anytime the ball is dead and the game clock is stopped. (Rule 3-6.1.h)

A.R. 46 gives a few more situations, but basically does not allow a sub in this situation unless a team requests a timeout. Otherwise, we ignore the horn.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

(2) There is a specific rule in FED -- something along the lines of "other than the above (e.g., fist of multiple FTs, sub needing to wait for the clock to run), a sub is permitted anytime the ball is dead and the clock is stopped."

I do not totally disagree, just think that this is not a situation that is completely covered under the rules and the Referee can decide what is fair. I think you have to weigh who benefited from this and why they would benefit from this. If we have an IH, I would like to make the situation go back to normal as soon as possible and not allow a sub when we would not have had the horn. If there is a huge delay or something that might have nothing to do with a horn being blown inadvertently, then I would have no issue with the sub. This is why I tell tables to often do not blow the horn at all for subs. They will even blow the horn just because the coach says, "sub sub sub sub" and the player is not off the bench. I am not giving a sub just because the horn was blown. During a FT is a little bit more laid back period, but still want to keep the integrity of the action that took place.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

... if the sub was otherwise allowed, the fact that there was a horn / IW does not restrict the sub ...

Agree. Unless there is a specific rule, or interpretation, that doesn't allow the substitution (multiple free throws, sit a tick, illegal equipment, etc.), there is no rule that allows an official to not allow a substitute enter the game in the original post situation. If a whistle is sounded, the clock is stopped, and the ball is dead, unless there is a rule that forbids substitutions in that situation, then I'm allowing the substitutes to enter. The rulebook, and case book, specifically, and clearly, tell us when to not allow a substitute to enter. This is not one of those situations.

[Stillblind]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The sub is neither legal or illegal. If I stopped play because of an inadvertent horn, I would put back the ball in play with the same status of the sub when the horn was blown. So if subs could not come in when the horn went off, I would not allow a sub to come in after I have stopped play. But that is on the officials to ultimately decide. But I believe there is a case play that covers this, but I do not have that in front of me right now.

Peace

This came up again tonight. Live Ball, horn, whistle to stop player from traveling. Nothing in the rules book tells me not to allow the subs at the table in.
I’m unable to find the Case Play, but I do believe it’s out there maybe 8 years ago.. any help would be appreciated

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Stillblind

This came up again tonight. Live Ball, horn, whistle to stop player from traveling. Nothing in the rules book tells me not to allow the subs at the table in.
I’m unable to find the Case Play, but I do believe it’s out there maybe 8 years ago.. any help would be appreciated

If you blow the whistle, the subs come in (in NFHS). In NCAA, not so.

[rbruno]

I wouldn't ignore the horn as the table might be trying to inform us of an error. A correctable error (and who wants those) might be avoided if we blow the whistle.

[Mbilica]

Originally Posted by rbruno

I wouldn't ignore the horn as the table might be trying to inform us of an error. A correctable error (and who wants those) might be avoided if we blow the whistle.

Yesterday, I was working as the clock operator in my son's middle school game and the officials (from my IAABO board) failed to award the 2nd free throw to the visiting team on the 8th foul. This was despite verbal confirmation between the table and the officials that there would be two shots. In addition, the lead official announced two shots when he bounced the ball to the shooter. So, when the home team grabbed the rebound of the missed first free throw, the visiting team coach and I were both surprised when the officials allowed the game to continue. When they crossed into the front court and were about to take a shot, the visiting coach was beside himself. So, I hit the horn hard and explained that they get one more free throw. So, the officials went back down to the other end and administeted the 2nd free throw. It ended up being a big play in the game.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rbruno

I wouldn't ignore the horn as the table might be trying to inform us of an error. A correctable error (and who wants those) might be avoided if we blow the whistle.

The official might be able to look at the table to assess what is happening (look for a sheepish grin, the "my bad" motion, waving the official to the table, etc.) And the table should wait until the ball is dead to signal.

Originally Posted by Mbilica

Yesterday, I was working as the clock operator in my son's middle school game and the officials (from my IAABO board) failed to award the 2nd free throw to the visiting team on the 8th foul. This was despite verbal confirmation between the table and the officials that there would be two shots. In addition, the lead official announced two shots when he bounced the ball to the shooter. So, when the home team grabbed the rebound of the missed first free throw, the visiting team coach and I were both surprised when the officials allowed the game to continue. When they crossed into the front court and were about to take a shot, the visiting coach was beside himself. So, I hit the horn hard and explained that they get one more free throw. So, the officials went back down to the other end and administeted the 2nd free throw. It ended up being a big play in the game.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

I'm not sure why two FTs are awarded on the 8th foul, but even if there is an issue -- the table should wait until the ball is dead (in these instances).

[Mbilica]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The official might be able to look at the table to assess what is happening (look for a sheepish grin, the "my bad" motion, waving the official to the table, etc.) And the table should wait until the ball is dead to signal.



I'm not sure why two FTs are awarded on the 8th foul, but even if there is an issue -- the table should wait until the ball is dead (in these instances).

Why wait? If they score and the ball is at the disposal of the thrower in, then we have passed the dead ball opportunity to correct the error, since the live ball was dead on the goal and live again. Plus, 2 points would be on the board that don't come off, even if the officials recognized the error somehow before the ball was at the disposal of the thrower in. The visiting team was in disarray because they expected another free throw. It would be patently unfair to allow the home team to take advantage of a correctable error once recognized. I chose to save the crew. The crew had no problem with me doing this. It prevented a potential Technical foul as well.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk