Flagrant foul or not

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Adam

why is this not LGP?

NCAA-M this may not be LGP if an offensive player is rotating within their cylinder and elbows are vertical and the elbows or forearm make contact with said defender. The foul is on the defender.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by northbendon

We went with intentional foul didn't think it was a violent act ....thanks for the feed back


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What rule set were you utilizing?

Would also like to know the answer to Adam's question.

[kelvinsmerli]

intentional 4 elbow heighth with assumption of NO knowledge of defender. Any thought of A1 knowing, Gone


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[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

He stated it was a Varsity Girls contest. Are there any states that use college rules beyond implementation of the shot clock?

Yes, New York.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by kelvinsmerli

intentional 4 elbow heighth with assumption of NO knowledge of defender. Any thought of A1 knowing, Gone


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Not on a player just turning. If the elbow moves independent of the hips, minimum intentional.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Not on a player just turning. If the elbow moves independent of the hips, minimum intentional.

If you read the POE, the written words require that any moving elbow is intentional. Contact with an elbow "in movement" is intentional foul, it says. If the elbows move in a speed faster than the body rotates it is deemed "excessive" and intentional OR flagrant is possible.

If the elbow is stationary it is either incidental or common foul. Common foul example is a screening player setting it with hands at chest and elbows out beyond shoulders. Illegal position. Defender runs by and hits elbow with head. Elbow is stationary so common foul.

The way the POE is written if the elbow is moving in high school it is intentional. Even if the elbow is simply moving with the rest of the body at normal speed.

That is what the POE says and requires. I dont like it. Id like to be able to call a common foul in certain circumstances. My biggest gripe though is that all this, whatever they want, isnt in the rule book.

[northbendon]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

What rule set were you utilizing?



Would also like to know the answer to Adam's question.

Fed .....after reading Lgp rule I think the defender was legal


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[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by BigCat

If you read the POE, the written words require that any moving elbow is intentional. Contact with an elbow "in movement" is intentional foul, it says. If the elbows move in a speed faster than the body rotates it is deemed "excessive" and intentional OR flagrant is possible.

If the elbow is stationary it is either incidental or common foul. Common foul example is a screening player setting it with hands at chest and elbows out beyond shoulders. Illegal position. Defender runs by and hits elbow with head. Elbow is stationary so common foul.

The way the POE is written if the elbow is moving in high school it is intentional. Even if the elbow is simply moving with the rest of the body at normal speed.

That is what the POE says and requires. I dont like it. Id like to be able to call a common foul in certain circumstances. My biggest gripe though is that all this, whatever they want, isnt in the rule book.

The POE was not written that way. A moving elbow is one moving faster than the torso, IE swinging elbows.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

A moving elbow is one moving faster than the torso, IE swinging elbows.

Are you sure?

"An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul."

[SNIPERBBB]

All the stuff that came out in regarding that poe made it clear.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

The POE was not written that way. A moving elbow is one moving faster than the torso, IE swinging elbows.

Plug in elbows 2012 National Fedration point of emphasis into your browser and you will see that it is written that way. A moving elbow....is moving. An elbow moving faster than the torso is also moving....excessively.

[potato]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You do not see this anywhere because it was an overreaction and taking a position that even the NCAA backed off of. There were many times where any slight contact with an opponent would have been an intentional or flagrant when the player was doing normal basketball movements. If I recall they did not make a definitive statement across the board. But I know my state made it clear that we were not to just make this an "automatic" but to judge the nature of the contact. For example if a player is coming down a rebounding the ball and hitting the opponent in the head with an elbow where the player might not have even realized the opponent was there. After all players do try to grab the ball and come down with their elbows in some kind of way. Now our state clarified this for us here, maybe you need to get clarification from your people. The NF is just going to give what they feel needs to be addressed and the specifics are going to come from your jurisdiction as that is their overall policy it seems.


Peace

I guess there are 2 things to consider:

1.Was the action intentional.
2.How bad was the contact if there was any.

Intentional & Bad = Flagrant 2/Disqualifying foul

Intentional & Minor = Flagrant 2/Disqualifying foul

Intentional no contact = Technical Foul/Unsportsmanship Foul.

Unintentional & Bad = Flagrant 2/Disqualifying foul

Unintentional & Minor = Flagrant 1/Unsportsmanship foul

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by potato

I guess there are 2 things to consider:

1.Was the action intentional.
2.How bad was the contact if there was any.

Intentional & Bad = Flagrant 2/Disqualifying foul

Intentional & Minor = Flagrant 2/Disqualifying foul

Intentional no contact = Technical Foul/Unsportsmanship Foul.

Unintentional & Bad = Flagrant 2/Disqualifying foul

Unintentional & Minor = Flagrant 1/Unsportsmanship foul

If we are talking elbow plays, calling a technical foul is not appropriate. This is violation or nothing at either NF or NCAA level.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If we are talking elbow plays, calling a technical foul is not appropriate. This is violation or nothing at either NF or NCAA level.

Peace

Unless the official deems it an attempt to strike the opponent. He did write that it was an intentional act.