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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 08:33pm
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Flagrant foul

I would like to understand the line between a flagrant and a regular technical foul.

What are some examples of flagrant fouls that you have called or seen? Or general guidance is appreciated.

Clearly when this flagrant situation comes up I would like to hit it decisively, without hesitation.
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 08:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelbRef View Post
I would like to understand the line between a flagrant and a regular technical foul.

What are some examples of flagrant fouls that you have called or seen? Or general guidance is appreciated.

Clearly when this flagrant situation comes up I would like to hit it decisively, without hesitation.
I've never called a flagrant foul. Fighting is flagrant, any excessive force in a reckless manner on a player is usually flagrant. The key word there is excessive. If it's just a little bit of force in a reckless manner while not making an attempt to play the ball, then it would be an intentional foul.

I saw your other post, are you a new referee?
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 08:57pm
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I'm a second year, and I just want to be very decisive (and sell) any intentional or flagrant calls. I have not had to call either yet.
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 08:59pm
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A flagrant foul is a foul of a violent or savage nature. It involves at the very least violent contact such as striking, kicking or kneeing. If it occurs during a dead ball (flagrant technical) it can even include conduct that was non-contact but is extreme, persistent, vulgar or abusive.

I'm paraphrasing the NF rulebook. I usually will call one if the contact was intended to injure or showed an utter disregard for the fouled player's safety.
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 09:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by representing View Post
I've never called a flagrant foul. Fighting is flagrant, any excessive force in a reckless manner on a player is usually flagrant. The key word there is excessive. If it's just a little bit of force in a reckless manner while not making an attempt to play the ball, then it would be an intentional foul.
Lah me.....

The key word is "excessive? If that was true, then how come the definition of an intentional foul in rule 4-19-3 states that it's "excessive contact with an opponent"?

Methinks it might not be a bad idea if you were to actually learn some of the basic rules before answering questions.
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 09:07pm
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Originally Posted by Mark Padgett View Post
A flagrant foul is a foul of a violent or savage nature. It involves at the very least violent contact such as striking, kicking or kneeing. If it occurs during a dead ball (flagrant technical) it can even include conduct that was non-contact but is extreme, persistent, vulgar or abusive.

I'm paraphrasing the NF rulebook. I usually will call one if the contact was intended to injure or showed an utter disregard for the fouled player's safety.
Thanks...examples are always helpful. (just trying to understand the gray area)

Let's say that a player gets fouled hard on a layup, and picks up the ball and throws it at the offender?

One player says to an opponent or official, "Fxxx you".
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 09:16pm
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Originally Posted by MelbRef View Post
Thanks...examples are always helpful. (just trying to understand the gray area)

Let's say that a player gets fouled hard on a layup, and picks up the ball and throws it at the offender?

One player says to an opponent or official, "Fxxx you".
I always say "had to be there," but on your examples, they strike me as potentially flagrant.

If the player throws the ball hard, perhaps in an intent to injure, probably. If he flips it in a taunting way, just a T.

If a player says F-you directly to someone, likely flagrant (can't think of a situation where it wouldn't be right now, but never say never/always).
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 09:48pm
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I've called two, one technical, one personal.

1. Player said, "Ref's are cheating their a**es off."

I actually was not sure what he said and was going to ignore him. But he repeated himself, obviously wanted me to hear him.


2. Player picked up the ball, holding it in both hands. He then made a big roundhouse swing, contacting the defender on the jaw, laying him out on the floor.
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 10:02pm
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Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
Lah me.....

The key word is "excessive? If that was true, then how come the definition of an intentional foul in rule 4-19-3 states that it's "excessive contact with an opponent"?

Methinks it might not be a bad idea if you were to actually learn some of the basic rules before answering questions.
Amen.
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 11:35pm
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Examples...let's see.....

Player trapped in back court and didn't like it when my partner called him for traveling - when I asked him for the ball he turned and threw it directly at me at head level as hard as he could from about 10 feet away .....it got better.... when I reported the flagrant & resulting DQ, his coach came yelling and screaming onto the court, earning himself a T from my partner!

Player going for layup on a fast break - defender takes him out from behind and both go crashing to the floor. As I whistle and indicate intentional foul, player that was fouled rolls over and deliberately kicks the kid who fouled him.
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Old Tue Dec 22, 2009, 11:50pm
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Aside from fighting (the obvious), I'll give you an example.
2nd quarter of a BF game, B1 shoves a breakaway shooter from behind. I hit him with the intentional.
Early in the 4th quarter, B1 does it again; this time with a smaller shooter. B1 is 6-2 250 and the shooter was about 5-8 150. Not only did he shove him in the back, he wound up and shoved "through" him. The intent was obvious, and my partner went immediately to the flagrant call.

His parents weren't happy. Apparently, his dad tried to get to our locker room after the game. Then, his mom called the school (game admin was a varsity official in our association) and complained that they (the home school) and the officials were depriving her son of his right to play ball (due to the one game suspension that comes with a flagrant foul).
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Old Wed Dec 23, 2009, 08:34am
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Aside from fighting (the obvious), I'll give you an example.
2nd quarter of a BF game, B1 shoves a breakaway shooter from behind. I hit him with the intentional.
Early in the 4th quarter, B1 does it again; this time with a smaller shooter. B1 is 6-2 250 and the shooter was about 5-8 150. Not only did he shove him in the back, he wound up and shoved "through" him. The intent was obvious, and my partner went immediately to the flagrant call.

His parents weren't happy. Apparently, his dad tried to get to our locker room after the game. Then, his mom called the school (game admin was a varsity official in our association) and complained that they (the home school) and the officials were depriving her son of his right to play ball (due to the one game suspension that comes with a flagrant foul).
This is one thing that today's society and myself tend to differ on. I was always taught that sports (and any other extra activities) were a privilege and not a right. Act and play appropriately and then you don’t have to worry about your right to play. Just my 2 cents. YMMV.
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Old Wed Dec 23, 2009, 10:40am
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Originally Posted by TimTaylor View Post
Examples...let's see.....
Player going for layup on a fast break - defender takes him out from behind and both go crashing to the floor. As I whistle and indicate intentional foul, player that was fouled rolls over and deliberately kicks the kid who fouled him.
Intentional on A1 and Flagrant T on B1. I don't have my books in front of me so clarify for me, who gets the ball and where?

Obviously we'll shoot free throws for both teams in the order the fouls occurred (with a replacement player for B). Does this go to AP? POI or mid-court?

I'll register my guess as AP at mid-court.
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Old Wed Dec 23, 2009, 10:43am
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Originally Posted by offici88 View Post
Intentional on A1 and Flagrant T on B1. I don't have my books in front of me so clarify for me, who gets the ball and where?

Obviously we'll shoot free throws for both teams in the order the fouls occurred (with a replacement player for B). Does this go to AP? POI or mid-court?

I'll register my guess as AP at mid-court.

Huh? After the free throws for a technical foul, the shooting team gets the ball at midcourt, opposite table.
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Old Wed Dec 23, 2009, 10:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offici88 View Post
Obviously we'll shoot free throws for both teams in the order the fouls occurred (with a replacement player for B). Does this go to AP? POI or mid-court?

I'll register my guess as AP at mid-court.
You had it right on the order for the free throws - penalizing fouls in the order they occur also tells us who gets the ball. The team who shoots the second set of FTs gets the ball at mid-court.
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