Flagrant foul or not

[northbendon]

Varsity girls... possession is secured by the offense...defender is not in legal guarding position (right up in tight)offensive player turns and elbow caughts defender in the face ....what's your call


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[JRutledge]

Honestly would have to see it. I could see this as a regular PC foul if the ball handler did not measure up the defender.

This is really a HTBT situation where we would have to judge the actions before this play and even some afterwards.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by northbendon

Varsity girls... possession is secured by the offense...defender is not in legal guarding position (right up in tight)offensive player turns and elbow caughts defender in the face ....what's your call


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This is one of those things that irritates me to no end. 4 years ago(I think) the NFHS put out the point of emphasis on elbows. They said an elbow "in movement" that hits opponent in head is/was at least an intentional foul. (could be flagrant). Your play, the elbow is moving, so it would be at least, intentional under those guidelines. The player was responsible for his elbows..even if defender in his grill. Now, where can you find that information? Not in the rule book or case book. That is something that happens from time to time and should be in the rule book. Certainly with the emphasis on Concussions you'd think they'd tell us what they want on elbow/head contact and put it somewhere it can be found.


(And I have never agreed with those who say the book would be too long so we can't put all rules in a rule book. The NCAA does pretty well.

At the least I'd like to see them have an electronic library of all case plays they say are still valid and rules etc. )

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

This is one of those things that irritates me to no end. 4 years ago(I think) the NFHS put out the point of emphasis on elbows. They said an elbow "in movement" that hits opponent in head is intentional foul. Your play, the elbow is moving, so it would be intentional under those guidelines. The player was responsible for his elbows..even if defender in his grill. Now, where can you find that information? Not in the rule book or case book. That is something that happens from time to time and should be in the rule book. Certainly with the emphasis on Concussions you'd think they'd tell us what they want on elbow/head contact and put it somewhere it can be found.

You do not see this anywhere because it was an overreaction and taking a position that even the NCAA backed off of. There were many times where any slight contact with an opponent would have been an intentional or flagrant when the player was doing normal basketball movements. If I recall they did not make a definitive statement across the board. But I know my state made it clear that we were not to just make this an "automatic" but to judge the nature of the contact. For example if a player is coming down a rebounding the ball and hitting the opponent in the head with an elbow where the player might not have even realized the opponent was there. After all players do try to grab the ball and come down with their elbows in some kind of way. Now our state clarified this for us here, maybe you need to get clarification from your people. The NF is just going to give what they feel needs to be addressed and the specifics are going to come from your jurisdiction as that is their overall policy it seems.


Peace

[SC Official]

I believe the title of your thread is erroneous for discussing a high school game. The term "flagrant" under NFHS rules means the offender is disqualified, and I don't think you're suggesting that disqualification would be warranted based on the information you described.

HTBT. Perhaps intentional, but just no way to know.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by northbendon

...defender is not in legal guarding position (right up in tight)offensive player turns and elbow caughts defender in the face

Sounds a lot like James Harden/Marcus Smart in the final 20 seconds of tonight's Celtics-Rockets game.

Officials ruled Flagrant 1 (after about the fourth tedious visit to the Replay Center in the final minute ... awful) and I definitely would've gone flagrant in a HS game too.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

I believe the title of your thread is erroneous for discussing a high school game. The term "flagrant" under NFHS rules means the offender is disqualified, and I don't think you're suggesting that disqualification would be warranted based on the information you described.

HTBT. Perhaps intentional, but just no way to know.

He might feel that the actions deserve an ejection or the player in question was ejected so there is some question about the ruling.

I was asked the same question about a week ago by a coach at a tournament I worked and then watched. That was the way the coach addressed this situation because his player was ejected from the game apparently. So it might be why he is asking the question in the first place?

Peace

[Rob1968]

2012-13 POINTS OF EMPHASIS

a. . . . Excessive swinging of the elbows occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot. . . .
b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders.
1) Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul.
2) An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.
3) A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or
flagrant personal foul.

[Nevadaref]

I wish to know why the OP believe that the defender does not have a legal guarding position. Perhaps the question is intended for NCAA rules and the new cylinder interpretation is applicable.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I wish to know why the OP believe that the defender does not have a legal guarding position. Perhaps the question is intended for NCAA rules and the new cylinder interpretation is applicable.

He stated it was a Varsity Girls contest. Are there any states that use college rules beyond implementation of the shot clock?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by northbendon

Varsity girls... possession is secured by the offense...defender is not in legal guarding position (right up in tight)offensive player turns and elbow caughts defender in the face ....what's your call


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why is this not LGP?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

He stated it was a Varsity Girls contest. Are there any states that use college rules beyond implementation of the shot clock?

I think NYS (possibly just NYC) uses NCAA-W for girl's basketball.

[northbendon]

Originally Posted by Adam

why is this not LGP?

We went with intentional foul didn't think it was a violent act ....thanks for the feed back


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[Adam]

Originally Posted by northbendon

We went with intentional foul didn't think it was a violent act ....thanks for the feed back


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Still curious why you think LGP was missing.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

Still curious why you think LGP was missing.

It sounds like he is interpreting this as a "cylinder play" which is not illegal in the NF level.

Peace