Fumbled Ball (cont)

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Read it again when u get a chance and 9.5. The rule 4 play doesn't say u can only do it if it is a shot.

I've read it, and it does say in an attempt to score a try, the way I read it, if it isn't an attempt to score it's not legal.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I've read it, and it does say in an attempt to score a try, the way I read it, if it isn't an attempt to score it's not legal.

Alright, you are reading the words correctly...if it is an attempt at a try A1 can do anything. However, I don't like your interpretation. Its a huge jump to look at what A1 can do and declare all other things are illegal.

Read 9.5 also.

[RefBob]

[QUOTE=Rob1968;986398]

Originally Posted by requintero

9.5.3 of the NFHS Case Book seems to cover some aspects of your (A) hypothetical. A1 is dribbling and ends the dribble. A1 attempts a pass and (in 9.5.3 of the Case Book) the ball hits B1. A1 can recover the loose ball and dribble again. There is no violation because A1's pass was touched by or touched another player (Rule 9-5-3). (This would be the same result even if the ball had been first touched by A2.) If B1 had not touched the ball (your scenario), then if A1 recovered the ball and started a new dribble, this would be a Rule 9-5 illegal dribble violation. (Also see Case Book 7.1.1 Situation D.) If A1 recovered the ball without it first having been touched by another player, but DID NOT dribble again, then there is no violation. Or if A1 gets to the ball and (if possible) immediately starts dribbling it, then there is also no violation. (See Case Book 7.1.1 Situation D.)

It seems to me that Case Book 7.1.1 D is referring to a player who had not been dribbling, and then ended the dribble, before attempting a pass. However, the scenario being discussed is regarding a player who had dribbled, and had ended the dribble, before attempting a pass. Thus, in this case, recovery of the attempted pass, constitutes a second dribble, if the player is the first to touch or recover, the ball, and upon being first to touch the ball, a violation has occurred.

Yes, that is definitely my understanding. A1 in possession of the ball, if he has not previously dribbled, may toss the ball and then be the first to touch the ball.
If his is the first to touch the ball and recovers the ball, he may not dribble. He may, however, bat the ball and then recover the ball (or continue the dribble after the first or subsequent bats.)

[RefBob]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Nice scenario. Assuming he had already ended his dribble, can he legally start a new dribble?

If A1 has ended a dribble and throws the ball such that it hits the bottom of B's backboard A1 cannot even be the first to touch the ball. See NFHS Casebook 4.15.4 Situation C and Casebook 9.5. If A1 had not previously dribbled, he could recover the ball but not start a new dribble. See Casebook 4.15.1 Situation C and NFHS Rule 4-4-5.

If A1 has ended a dribble and throws the ball such that it hits the bottom of A's backboard, A1 may catch the ball but not start a new dribble. See Casebook 9.5. However, if the throw was deemed to be a try for goal, A1 can catch the rebound and dribble again. See Casebook 4.15.4 Situation C.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by requintero

If A1 had not previously dribbled, he could recover the ball (off B's backboard) but not start a new dribble.

Agree. However, while he couldn't catch the ball, and start a new dribble; he could just allow the ball to hit the floor, and keep dribbling.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by requintero

If A1 has ended a dribble and throws the ball such that it hits the bottom of A's backboard, A1 may catch the ball but not start a new dribble.

I like requintero's post, but some Forum members may disagree with him. There's also the question about moving feet, or stationery feet?

So just exactly what is the movement this ball called? It was not deemed to be a shot. The NFHS says that is not considered to be a part of a dribble. The ball doesn't unintentionally drop, or slip, from a player’s grasp, and player control is not accidentally lost, so it's not a fumble. It's not a pass, no such thing as a self-pass. It's not a tap as part of a jump ball (a jumper can move his feet between taps, right?). What the hell is it? It has to be defined by the rules before we can utilize the rules to address what can legally happen during the play, or after the play.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I like requintero's post, but some Forum members may disagree with him. There's also the question about moving feet, or stationery feet?

So just exactly what is the movement this ball called? It was not deemed to be a shot. The NFHS says that is not considered to be a part of a dribble. The ball doesn't unintentionally drop, or slip, from a player’s grasp, and player control is not accidentally lost, so it's not a fumble. It's not a pass, no such thing as a self-pass. It's not a tap as part of a jump ball (a jumper can move his feet between taps, right?). What the hell is it? It has to be defined by the rules before we can utilize the rules to address what can legally happen during the play, or after the play.

WHO CARES????? If you get this wrong the one time in 10,000 games it may happen and not call or call it who cares???? Just guess. Your odds are 50/50. In my 15 years I have NEVER had this, and if it comes up Ill either blow my whistle or I won't. Im undecided. But I will decide when it does happen. Either way I'm ok with no beating this to death.

For the record this scenario has been covered and requintero would be wrong to deem it legal. Remember the whole it must be "judged" a shot thing.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

Just guess.

That's not the way I roll, and it's not the way that most great basketball officials, who happen to be Forum members, roll, especially during the off season, when we have to time to debate how many angels can dribble miniature basketballs on the head of a pin.

It's about a thorough understanding of the rules, including the definitions, of the game of basketball. It's only one component of being a good basketball official, but it's an important component. Certainly a good place to start.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

For the record this scenario has been covered and requintero would be wrong to deem it legal. Remember the whole it must be "judged" a shot thing.

And, for the record, deecee would be wrong. Nothing in the caseplay states that this is a try (shot):

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

Judging this a try makes this caseplay irrelevant (and a lot easier to deal with).

[RefBob]

Some thoughts:

1. Per NFHS Casebook 9.5, A1 dribbles and comes to a stop. If A1 throws against B’s backboard and catches the ball this is a double dribble violation. (Clearly even if A is standing still, the throw against B’s backboard and subsequent catch is the start and end of a dribble.)

2. Per NFHS Casebook 9.5, if A1 dribbles, comes to a stop and throws against A’s backboard and catches the ball - this is legal. Therefore, the throw and catch against A’s own backboard is not the start and stop of a dribble – it is the use of A’s team equipment. (Also see NFHS Rule 4-15-1 which provides that, “It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player’s own backboard.” The 4-15-1 rule reference is an exception to Rule 4-4-5 which states that, “A ball which touches the front faces or edges of the backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds.” Without the exception in 4-15-1, A1 catching the bounce of his own backboard would be the same as A1 catching his bounce off the floor – which is the start and end of a dribble.) Now, if after catching the ball off his own backboard A1 dribbles (assume he has remained still this whole time), he will be guilty of a double dribble violation. (I am, of course, assuming that the throw by A1 against his own backboard was not a try for goal. If it was a try for goal, A1 could, of course, recover the rebound and dribble again.)

3. Interesting discussion of whether after the release of A1’s throw against A’s backboard, A1 may move his pivot foot to go catch the ball. If A1 moves his pivot foot and successfully catches the ball, my approach would be to rule that this is a travellng violation. See Casebook 4.44.3 Situation C. It's also interesting that the Casebook scenarios on throws against the backboard are in the dribbling sections - not the traveling section. So I don't think interpretations on permissible dribbles trump the traveling rules.

Thanks for considering.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So just exactly what is the movement this ball called? It was not deemed to be a shot. The NFHS says that is not considered to be a part of a dribble. The ball doesn't unintentionally drop, or slip, from a player’s grasp, and player control is not accidentally lost, so it's not a fumble. It's not a pass, no such thing as a self-pass. It's not a tap as part of a jump ball (a jumper can move his feet between taps, right?). What the hell is it? It has to be defined by the rules before we can utilize the rules to address what can legally happen during the play, or after the play.

It's the same as it's been for the past 20 years (or however long this forum has been around; and the case play did change slightly maybe 10 years ago).

IOW, some will have it one way; some will have it the other. (Especially) now that both points have been expressed, there's really no need to ask the "well, what is it?" type question.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

And, for the record, deecee would be wrong. Nothing in the caseplay states that this is a try (shot):

What does 9-5 tell us a player can do legally after ending the dribble?

Since one cannot take a shot at an opponent's basket but can on theirs I think it's pretty clear. Because if you want to microscopically analyze the line " Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used."

A player can throw the ball of any equipment (like a brace) and restart the dribble.

[rsl]

No Triple Double? I have a question… | blog maverick

Back in 2004, the NBA took away a triple double because a player intentionally missed and got his own rebound. They ruled it wasn;t a real shot attempt, i.e., he missed on purpose to get an extra rebound.

But, they didn't call a violation during the game.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

How can you agree with the second part of OKREF's post? It's in direct opposition to the caseplay. A player can just throw it off of (his) backboard and retrieve it, especially if he doesn't move his feet (which is not mentioned, one way, or the other, in the caseplay).

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

It's not in opposition. You're in the crowd reading things into this play that do not exist. I'm not saying your crowd is wrong, I'm saying only looking at the NFHS rules it never says it's legal to purposely throw it off your own backboard and then retrieve it/dribble again. And by retrieve I mean moving both feet to get the ball.

9.5 is only stating that throwing the ball of your own backboard isn't counted as a dribble. The only decent defense I have seen in this entire post was by Camron referencing an NCAA play. However, on the NCAA play the case book references being able to move/dribble again at an attempt at a shot. 9.5 says nothing about a shot, or references it at the end.

Anyway, I honestly don't care which way it's called as long as a crew is calling it consistent. Mainly I wanted to know if there was any definite knowledge as to how to call this play and so far I haven't seen it.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Dad

It's not in opposition. You're in the crowd reading things into this play that do not exist. I'm not saying your crowd is wrong, I'm saying only looking at the NFHS rules it never says it's legal to purposely throw it off your own backboard and then retrieve it/dribble again. And by retrieve I mean moving both feet to get the ball.

9.5 is only stating that throwing the ball of your own backboard isn't counted as a dribble. The only decent defense I have seen in this entire post was by Camron referencing an NCAA play. However, on the NCAA play the case book references being able to move/dribble again at an attempt at a shot. 9.5 says nothing about a shot, or references it at the end.

I think this is part of the disconnect. This case play says it must be considered a shot, therefore if it isn't a shot one could infer that it's a violation. This may or may not be a stretch, however it could be interpreted as that, and then it would be conflicting with rule 9.5.

4.15.4 C

After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball: (a) against the opponent's backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles again.

RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the opponent's backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is the first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore, A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.