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Old Fri Apr 15, 2016, 02:59pm
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Fumbled Ball (cont)

Thanks for all the posts on my fumbled ball scenario...one response got me to thinking ... and that response was "that you cannot travel without the ball!" Makes lots of sense ...It did make me think of 3 hypothetical scenarios however... I would appreciate your expertise

In all three scenarios ... the offensive Player has picked up his dribble in the back court

A In A the offensive being closely regarded decides to roll the ball on the floor away from the double team ...while his chances may be slim to be the first to get to the ball ..lets say he or she does ...is this a violation ... and if so what violation Player A guilty of>

In B and C ...same scenario trapped in the backcourt but near opponent's basket ... In B --- Player A throws the ball off opponent's backboard and then races to get the ball! In C ...Player A turns and shoots it at the goal and chases down the rebound ..what are the violations in these scenarios? And what would the violation termed ...Travelling...illegal dribble?
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Old Fri Apr 15, 2016, 03:50pm
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Fumble Definition

"A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the player unintentionally drops or slips from a player's grasp."
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Old Fri Apr 15, 2016, 04:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickhickva View Post
Thanks for all the posts on my fumbled ball scenario...one response got me to thinking ... and that response was "that you cannot travel without the ball!" Makes lots of sense ...It did make me think of 3 hypothetical scenarios however... I would appreciate your expertise

In all three scenarios ... the offensive Player has picked up his dribble in the back court

A In A the offensive being closely regarded decides to roll the ball on the floor away from the double team ...while his chances may be slim to be the first to get to the ball ..lets say he or she does ...is this a violation ... and if so what violation Player A guilty of>

In B and C ...same scenario trapped in the backcourt but near opponent's basket ... In B --- Player A throws the ball off opponent's backboard and then races to get the ball! In C ...Player A turns and shoots it at the goal and chases down the rebound ..what are the violations in these scenarios? And what would the violation termed ...Travelling...illegal dribble?
All of these scenarios are in the case book. Read it over and over again...and when you think you've read it enough read it another 10 times. I read it all the time. If a player ends a dribble then rolls the ball and is first to pick it up it is an illegal dribble. Throwing /shooting ball against opponents backboard is a dribble if player first to touch it.

If I'm holding the ball and throw it over your head, take 5 steps and catch, that is travel. That isn't really "excess foot movement WHILE HOLDING the ball but it is still travel by casebook plays. Read, read and read more. All the time....good luck
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Old Fri Apr 15, 2016, 05:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickhickva View Post
Thanks for all the posts on my fumbled ball scenario...one response got me to thinking ... and that response was "that you cannot travel without the ball!" Makes lots of sense ...It did make me think of 3 hypothetical scenarios however... I would appreciate your expertise

In all three scenarios ... the offensive Player has picked up his dribble in the back court

A In A the offensive being closely regarded decides to roll the ball on the floor away from the double team ...while his chances may be slim to be the first to get to the ball ..lets say he or she does ...is this a violation ... and if so what violation Player A guilty of>

In B and C ...same scenario trapped in the backcourt but near opponent's basket ... In B --- Player A throws the ball off opponent's backboard and then races to get the ball! In C ...Player A turns and shoots it at the goal and chases down the rebound ..what are the violations in these scenarios? And what would the violation termed ...Travelling...illegal dribble?
9.5.3 of the NFHS Case Book seems to cover some aspects of your (A) hypothetical. A1 is dribbling and ends the dribble. A1 attempts a pass and (in 9.5.3 of the Case Book) the ball hits B1. A1 can recover the loose ball and dribble again. There is no violation because A1's pass was touched by or touched another player (Rule 9-5-3). (This would be the same result even if the ball had been first touched by A2.) If B1 had not touched the ball (your scenario), then if A1 recovered the ball and started a new dribble, this would be a Rule 9-5 illegal dribble violation. (Also see Case Book 7.1.1 Situation D.) If A1 recovered the ball without it first having been touched by another player, but DID NOT dribble again, then there is no violation. Or if A1 gets to the ball and (if possible) immediately starts dribbling it, then there is also no violation. (See Case Book 7.1.1 Situation D.)

Regarding your scenario (B), under 9.5 in the Case Book if A1 throws the ball against the opponent's backboard and is the first to touch the ball, this is Rule 9-5 illegal dribble violation. (Note: A1 could have thrown the ball against her own backboard.)

Regarding your scenario (c), under 4.44 Situation B of the Case Book, if A1 "attempts a try" (defined in Rule 4-41-2 as basically a legitimate throw for a goal), but shoots an air ball and is able to get the rebound before the ball hits the floor, there is no violation.
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Old Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by requintero View Post
Regarding your scenario (c), under 4.44 Situation B of the Case Book, if A1 "attempts a try" (defined in Rule 4-41-2 as basically a legitimate throw for a goal), but shoots an air ball and is able to get the rebound before the ball hits the floor, there is no violation.
When you know the rule and definition of a try you will have an answer to this one.
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Old Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:44pm
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Originally Posted by deecee View Post
When you know the rule and definition of a try you will have an answer to this one.
Ahhhhh, I forgot that in the OP's scenario A1 is in their backcout. So when they turn and shoot at the goal presumably they are shooting at their opponent's basket. Therefore, this is not a "try" because under Rule 4-41-2 a try is an attempt by a player to score 2 or 3 points by throwing the ball into their own's team basket. Therefore, if A1attempted a shot at their opponent's basket, managed to get the rebound before it hit the floor this would be a travelling violation as in 4.44.3 Situation C of the Case Book. Thanks for the clarification.
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Old Sat Apr 16, 2016, 01:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by requintero View Post
Regarding your scenario (B), under 9.5 in the Case Book if A1 throws the ball against the opponent's backboard and is the first to touch the ball, this is Rule 9-5 illegal dribble violation. (Note: A1 could have thrown the ball against her own backboard.).
Not entirely true, unless it was ruled an attempt at a shot. Own backboard is part of a teams equipment(example: Jersey).
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Old Sat Apr 16, 2016, 07:43am
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Thanks for all of the responses ...just to continue the discussion

In my related earlier post back on April 7 "Travelling or Fumbled Ball"
BEAREF posted: "Without possession of the ball a travel violation is not possible".
And in this my current post: "Fumbled Ball(cont)"
JeffM posted: "A fumble is the accidental loss of player control (of the ball) when the player unintentionally drops or slips from a player's grasp"

I agree with the posts with all three of the "hypos" something illegal has occurred
BUT in my mind a query still exists .... if you can't travel without the ball ... and the player in the 3 hypos does not have the ball .... there seems to be an inconsistency here ...is it just because a player inadvertently loses control of the ball due to a faulty maneuver of his own doing that we ignore that he or she was able to move to a different part of the court!"

I understand it is in the casebook ...but is it written this way in the rulebook ...it seems a bit contradictory to me in one instance it is okay to go after and retrieve the ball and in another it is a violation of some sorts...
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Old Sat Apr 16, 2016, 08:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickhickva View Post
Thanks for all of the responses ...just to continue the discussion

In my related earlier post back on April 7 "Travelling or Fumbled Ball"
BEAREF posted: "Without possession of the ball a travel violation is not possible".
And in this my current post: "Fumbled Ball(cont)"
JeffM posted: "A fumble is the accidental loss of player control (of the ball) when the player unintentionally drops or slips from a player's grasp"

I agree with the posts with all three of the "hypos" something illegal has occurred
BUT in my mind a query still exists .... if you can't travel without the ball ... and the player in the 3 hypos does not have the ball .... there seems to be an inconsistency here ...is it just because a player inadvertently loses control of the ball due to a faulty maneuver of his own doing that we ignore that he or she was able to move to a different part of the court!"

I understand it is in the casebook ...but is it written this way in the rulebook ...it seems a bit contradictory to me in one instance it is okay to go after and retrieve the ball and in another it is a violation of some sorts...
There is no penalty for accidental loss of the ball. There is a penalty for doing something illegal purposefully.
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Old Sat Apr 16, 2016, 11:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by requintero View Post
Regarding your scenario (B), under 9.5 in the Case Book if A1 throws the ball against the opponent's backboard and is the first to touch the ball, this is Rule 9-5 illegal dribble violation. (Note: A1 could have thrown the ball against her own backboard.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad View Post
Not entirely true, unless it was ruled an attempt at a shot. Own backboard is part of a teams equipment(example: Jersey).
Actually, it is.

The ruling is that a ball thrown off a player's own backboard my be legally retrieved by that player without regard to whether you think it was a shot or not.
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Old Sat Apr 16, 2016, 11:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickhickva View Post
I understand it is in the casebook ...but is it written this way in the rulebook ...it seems a bit contradictory to me in one instance it is okay to go after and retrieve the ball and in another it is a violation of some sorts...
It is matter of applying the spirit of the rule. When a player tries to be clever in an attempt to circumvent a rule, it is often considered as if they had violated that rule anyway.

Some of those cases are enumerated, some may not be.

Example:
A1 obtains possession of the ball while laying on the floor...legal.
A1 sits the ball on the floor and is no longer holding the ball...legal.
A1 stand...legal.
A1 picks up the ball...illegal....traveling.

Even though A1 did not hold the ball while moving the or standing up, this is considered an unfair attempt to circumvent the rules and is to be considered as if A1 were holding the ball the entire time as far as the traveling rule goes.

Tossing the ball into the air and running to catch it before it hits the floor is rules a violation under similar thinking.
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Old Sat Apr 16, 2016, 04:38pm
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Citation Please ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
The ruling is that a ball thrown off a player's own backboard my be legally retrieved by that player without regard to whether you think it was a shot or not.
Agree.

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)


According to this ruling, can said player legally start a dribble if he had already ended his dribble before the ball hit the backboard (assuming the official deems this not to be a try)? Also, this ruling doesn't stipulate whether, or not, the player moves his feet during this situation. What other "equipment" (why the NFHS quotes?) may be used in this manner? Headbands?

This not my favorite casebook play. In my opinion this citation provides more questions than answers. I wish the NFHS would expound upon this play and give a more complete answer.

How about: Any ball thrown off a players own basket, or backboard, is to always be considered a try? Now that would be nice, wouldn't it? Unfortunately the NFHS hasn't made that ruling yet.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Apr 16, 2016 at 04:55pm.
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Old Sat Apr 16, 2016, 05:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Agree.

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and (c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

According to this ruling, can said player legally start a dribble if he had already ended his dribble before the ball hit the backboard (assuming the official deems this not to be a try)? Also, this ruling doesn't stipulate whether, or not, the player moves his feet during this situation. What other "equipment" (why the NFHS quotes?) may be used in this manner? Headbands?

This not my favorite casebook play. In my opinion this citation provides more questions than answers. I wish the NFHS would expound upon this play and give a more complete answer.

How about: Any ball thrown off a players own basket, or backboard, is to always be considered a try? Now that would be nice, wouldn't it? Unfortunately the NFHS hasn't made that ruling yet.
While it has many of the effects of a try, it really isn't. Thus, your suggestion isn't quite fitting.

I think that, yes, the player can then dribble. The player can move his/her feet.

I believe the idea is that, in order to remove ambiguity in the action, treat it as if it were a shot (don't call any violations) except that it isn't a since it isn't an attempt to throw in into the basket. So, if it doesn't hit the board at all, the player would still be subject to traveling since it wasn't a shot.
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Old Sat Apr 16, 2016, 05:17pm
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Not A Shot ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I think that, yes, the player can then dribble.
Rule citation please (assume the player already ended his dribble and the official deemed this play not to be a shot).

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended,
unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Apr 16, 2016 at 10:15pm.
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Old Sat Apr 16, 2016, 05:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Actually, it is.

The ruling is that a ball thrown off a player's own backboard my be legally retrieved by that player without regard to whether you think it was a shot or not.
Where does it say anything about being able to throw it off your own backboard and moving both feet to retrieve it? It doesn't count as a dribble if you throw it off your shoes/shorts/jersey/etc. You still can't run to get it.
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