Snap fumbled by holder

kentref · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 18, 2006, 09:46pm

Holder K1 is in position with one knee on the ground to receive the long snap. K2 is in position to kick. The snap is good but K1 fumbles the ball while his knee is still on the ground. K1 rises to recover the ball and immediately drops to a knee to hold the ball for K2's kick. K2's kick is successful.

Ruling?

wisref2 · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 18, 2006, 11:13pm

As of this year - this is a legal play in federation. Rule 4-2-2

irefky · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 19, 2006, 06:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kentref

Holder K1 is in position with one knee on the ground to receive the long snap. K2 is in position to kick. The snap is good but K1 fumbles the ball while his knee is still on the ground. K1 rises to recover the ball and immediately drops to a knee to hold the ball for K2's kick. K2's kick is successful.

Ruling?

The key word is immediately. If K2 rises take a couple of steps and has to come back to his position, ball would be dead. K2 would probably be as well as it would take some time to do this but some of those kids are quick and it's possible that it will happen.

Warrenkicker · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 19, 2006, 07:19am

The key word here is "fumble." The new rule allows for a holder to rise and recover a snap which has touched the ground. The old rule always allowed a holder to rise and catch a snap and return to a knee. Last year he could not have recovered the grounded snap while his knee was off of the ground and then placed his knee on the ground again. Now he can without causing the ball to become dead. However if he caught the ball and then fumbled it he has lost his exception to the rule and the ball will become dead if he ever gains possession of it again and has his knee on the ground.

In the example play the ball was dead when the holder recovered his fumble and had a knee on the ground. The kick never happened.

Theisey · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 19, 2006, 08:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by wisref2

As of this year - this is a legal play in federation. Rule 4-2-2

Nothing I see has changed this from prior years.
If the holder fumbled the snap (which a later post says is not really possible by definition), left the ground and returned to the ground.
Then, Ball Dead.

The new rule change is for the case where he leaves the ground to recover a bad snap, i.e one that has bounced back to him. As long has he returned to the ground immediately, this is no longer a problem.

AndrewMcCarthy · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 19, 2006, 04:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kentref

Holder K1 is in position with one knee on the ground to receive the long snap. K2 is in position to kick. The snap is good but K1 fumbles the ball while his knee is still on the ground. K1 rises to recover the ball and immediately drops to a knee to hold the ball for K2's kick. K2's kick is successful.

Ruling?

You have to be more careful in your terminology. Is it even possible to FUMBLE a SNAP based on the rulebook definitions?

johnupchurch · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 19, 2006, 05:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewMcCarthy

You have to be more careful in your terminology. Is it even possible to FUMBLE a SNAP based on the rulebook definitions?

He didn't say he fumbled the snap. He said the snap was good. Then he fumbled the ball. You, sir, must be more careful in your observations.

AndrewMcCarthy · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 19, 2006, 08:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnupchurch

He didn't say he fumbled the snap. He said the snap was good. Then he fumbled the ball. You, sir, must be more careful in your observations.

Sorry, Pal. I should have quoted post #5.

Warrenkicker has it right on.

AndrewMcCarthy · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 20, 2006, 10:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnupchurch

He didn't say he fumbled the snap. He said the snap was good. Then he fumbled the ball. You, sir, must be more careful in your observations.

Actually it's in the title of the thread. Duh.

kentref · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 21, 2006, 06:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewMcCarthy

Actually it's in the title of the thread. Duh.

My apologies. I shouldn't have titled the thread as I did, using "snap" and "fumbled" in close proximity.

To clarify,... the snap was good, and the ball was in the possession of the holder. He fumbled it as he was attempting to place it for the kick.

My take is that the ball is dead when he returns to his knee.

Warrenkicker · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 21, 2006, 07:31am

You have it right.

However in that very short amount of time between catching a snap and placing it for a hold it would be very hard to fumble it. I'm not saying it can't be done especially at the high school level but that it would be rare. A holder may lose possession of the ball while placing it on the ground but then it wouldn't roll far away. However now he has lost his exception and while trying to pick the ball up he had better get that knee off of the ground before he grabs the ball or the play is over.

kentref · #12 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 23, 2006, 09:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrenkicker

You have it right.

However in that very short amount of time between catching a snap and placing it for a hold it would be very hard to fumble it. I'm not saying it can't be done especially at the high school level but that it would be rare. A holder may lose possession of the ball while placing it on the ground but then it wouldn't roll far away. However now he has lost his exception and while trying to pick the ball up he had better get that knee off of the ground before he grabs the ball or the play is over.

I agree with you re the "short amount of time." Let's change the play so that now the snap is still good, but this time the holder clearly muffs the ball. He (a) rises and retrieves the ball, grounds his knee again and places the ball for the kick, or (b) keeps his knee grounded and retrieves the ball and places the ball for the kick.

Ruling in (a) and (b)?

Warrenkicker · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 24, 2006, 07:59am

Your use of the term muff makes it legal in both (a) and (b). Muff means that it is still a snap and the holder has the exception when he gains possession of the snap.

wisref2 · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 25, 2006, 11:54am

Good discussion. I ignored the muff fumble issue in my first post in order to answer the actual question!

It seems to me that it would be really hard to determine a muff vs. a fumble in this situation. Due to the quickness of the action during a kick, I'm probably going to rule it a muff every time unless it's a really unusual situation. If he drops it anytime between it touching his hands and his placing the ball, it's hard to rule that he actually had possession long enough to make it a fumble - so give him the benefit of the doubt. Just like the rule concerning his knee - he's not down if his knee touches the ground, but what if he shin is also touching the ground, which it probably is!

Warrenkicker · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 25, 2006, 01:17pm

"Coach, I couldn't see from my angle that his shin was also on the ground. Sorry."

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