The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #31 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 01:40pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTaylor View Post
I agree that they should have blown their whistles, but even if they didn't, the ball is still dead by rule. Just because they didn't stop B1 from dribbling it down court doesn't make the ball live again.

The officials recognized it immediately thereafter - there was no interim play.

Because it was immediate, I maintain that the best way to handle it is to disallow B1's "goal" and proceed with A1's 2nd free throw. I can easily justify that by rule as previously cited.

"Coach, A1 was awarded two free throws. By rule the ball was dead when the first was missed and you can't score a goal when the ball is dead so B1's rebound and goal doesn't count. We're proceeding with A1's 2nd free throw."
Tim,

You have effectively taken 2-10-5 and 6 out of the Correctable error rule. Read the case play Bob cited.

Here's what the conversation should be---Both coaches together--"Coaches we screwed up and allowed the ball to remain in play when A1 should have gotten another free throw. The error was discovered in time to correct it. By rule all time that ran off clock, points scored before we stopped play are not nullified. Clock stays where it is at now and B's basket counts. We will shoot A1s other FT with no one on lane and then we will put the ball in play at the point of interruption (where we stopped the game when we realized there was a problem.) That will be a throw in for team A on the end line. That's what the rules require.

Again, sorry for the screw up."
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 01:53pm
Dad Dad is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 849
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
Tim,

You have effectively taken 2-10-5 and 6 out of the Correctable error rule. Read the case play Bob cited.

Here's what the conversation should be---Both coaches together--"Coaches we screwed up and allowed the ball to remain in play when A1 should have gotten another free throw. The error was discovered in time to correct it. By rule all time that ran off clock, points scored before we stopped play are not nullified. Clock stays where it is at now and B's basket counts. We will shoot A1s other FT with no one on lane and then we will put the ball in play at the point of interruption (where we stopped the game when we realized there was a problem.) That will be a throw in for team A on the end line. That's what the rules require.

Again, sorry for the screw up."
Did the clock start? Did the C forget it was the 1st and chop the clock? Did the officials just watch B wondering what he was doing? Need more information to know if it's a CE or a player just being a goof during dead ball.
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 02:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad View Post
Did the clock start? Did the C forget it was the 1st and chop the clock? Did the officials just watch B wondering what he was doing? Need more information to know if it's a CE or a player just being a goof during dead ball.
No, you really don't. The title of the OP is how do you correct the ERROR. Again, if a player was just being a goof we would be talking about technical fouls. Not correctable errors.
Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 02:05pm
Dad Dad is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 849
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
No, you really don't. The title of the OP is how do you correct the ERROR. Again, if a player was just being a goof we would be talking about technical fouls. Not correctable errors.
I agree it's probably a CE, but the post leaves out some vital info.
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 02:56pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad View Post
Did the clock start? Did the C forget it was the 1st and chop the clock? Did the officials just watch B wondering what he was doing? Need more information to know if it's a CE or a player just being a goof during dead ball.
And this has been my point from the beginning.

The rules are very specific on how a ball can become live - it doesn't happen by magic.

If in the OP's situation the officials had not immediately recognized the issue, and after B1's goal had allowed the ball to be at A's disposal for a throw in, then the ball becomes live by rule, there would be interim play and I agree that a CE situation would exist if the error was recognized within the allowable time frame.

I will also agree that there was a CE in the OP's situation, but it wasn't failing to award a merited free throw. The real CE was erroneously counting B1's score, and if A's coach was on the ball, he would challenge it as a correctable error on the basis the ball was dead after the missed first FT, and consequently B1's goal was invalid.
__________________
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

Last edited by TimTaylor; Wed Feb 17, 2016 at 03:06pm.
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 02:57pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
No, you really don't. The title of the OP is how do you correct the ERROR. Again, if a player was just being a goof we would be talking about technical fouls. Not correctable errors.
I disagree. If everyone except the kid is looking at him like he is a fool, the fact that they let him run down the court and let him shoot doesn't make it a live ball and a correctable error.

If the shots were announced as "2", the officials administered as 2, the other players reacted as 2, and the trial never chopped time in, it is a dead ball....and there really is no "error". You could issue a T, but I wouldn't if I thought the kid just spaced out and kept playing.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 03:24pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I disagree. If everyone except the kid is looking at him like he is a fool, the fact that they let him run down the court and let him shoot doesn't make it a live ball and a correctable error.

If the shots were announced as "2", the officials administered as 2, the other players reacted as 2, and the trial never chopped time in, it is a dead ball....and there really is no "error". You could issue a T, but I wouldn't if I thought the kid just spaced out and kept playing.
Again, the Op IS titled how do you correct error. Also, the op has B shoot the ball, it goes in and THEN the officials realize the error. B acting like a clown, dribbling ALL the way down the floor with everyone looking at him isn't part of the OP.

And again, if there's another FT to shoot and B takes off with the ball I will blow the whistle..soon...probably twice. If he continues all the way down the floor and shoots the ball he is getting a T.

Finally, Tim is saying that if the official announces two shots and B rebounds the first FT the ball remains dead even if everyone played all the way down floor...and the officials officiated. He says the ball only becomes live when it is at A1 disposal after B basket. That just isn't true. In correctable error situations the officials allow play to continue and consumed time, points scored are not nullified. The regular dead ball live ball rule does not apply when there is an error.

Last edited by BigCat; Wed Feb 17, 2016 at 03:47pm.
Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 04:07pm
Stubborn Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,517
By allowing the player from Team B to rebound the 1st FT attempt and go down and score, the officials have essentially made it so the ball became live by error.

And with that we have a correctable error.
Reply With Quote
  #39 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 04:23pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
.............Finally, Tim is saying that if the official announces two shots and B rebounds the first FT the ball remains dead even if everyone played all the way down floor...and the officials officiated. He says the ball only becomes live when it is at A1 disposal after B basket. That just isn't true. In correctable error situations the officials allow play to continue and consumed time, points scored are not nullified. The regular dead ball live ball rule does not apply when there is an error.
I understand where you are coming from, but am still waiting for a rules citation that directly supports what you are saying. Show me a ruling that the live ball/dead ball rules don't apply.

By contrast, I can and have provided rules citations that directly support what I have said, including that the officials counting the basket by B1 was the real correctable error in the OP's scenario.

There is also nothing in the OP that says everyone played all the way down the floor and the officials officiated.

The only way that B1's goal was valid is if the officials had awarded one free throw and administered it as such, B1 gets the rebound and scores, and then they realize there should have been a second free throw by A1. In that case the failure to award the 2nd merited free throw would be a CE. In that case any interim action would stand, including B1's goal and any time run off the clock.
__________________
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

Last edited by TimTaylor; Wed Feb 17, 2016 at 04:32pm.
Reply With Quote
  #40 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 04:29pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
By allowing the player from Team B to rebound the 1st FT attempt and go down and score, the officials have essentially made it so the ball became live by error.

And with that we have a correctable error.
Rule citation?
__________________
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
Reply With Quote
  #41 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 04:44pm
Stubborn Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTaylor View Post
Rule citation?
You wrote it... When the officials didn't stop play when they should have the ball was live when the free throw was missed.

That's the error that needs to be corrected.

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #42 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 04:55pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,505
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
You wrote it... When the officials didn't stop play when they should have the ball was live when the free throw was missed.

That's the error that needs to be corrected.

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk
THAT'S NOT A CE.

3 scenarios, 2 outcomes

1) The officials announce 2 shots and play as such, and B1 rebounds thinking it was only 1 and goes down and scores a basket while everyone else is just staring at this kid run like a spaz down the court to score.
OUTCOME: Make a joke to make the kid feel better because he's embarrassed enough, don't score the 2 and shoot the second FT as normal.

2) The officials announce 2 shots and play as such, except ALL kids brain fart and play the rebound. B1 goes down and score.
OUTCOME: If the officials didn't stop play before the score then the score counts and we go CE with 1 shot and no one on line and then resume at POE.

3) Officials announce 1&1 and things play out like described.
OUTCOME: See outcome of #2.

In any of the scenarios the officials screwed up.
__________________
in OS I trust
Reply With Quote
  #43 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 05:15pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTaylor View Post
I understand where you are coming from, but am still waiting for a rules citation that directly supports what you are saying. Show me a ruling that the live ball/dead ball rules don't apply.

By contrast, I can and have provided rules citations that directly support what I have said, including that the officials counting the basket by B1 was the real correctable error in the OP's scenario.

There is also nothing in the OP that says everyone played all the way down the floor and the officials officiated.

The only way that B1's goal was valid is if the officials had awarded one free throw and administered it as such, B1 gets the rebound and scores, and then they realize there should have been a second free throw by A1. In that case the failure to award the 2nd merited free throw would be a CE. In that case any interim action would stand, including B1's goal and any time run off the clock.
Tim, look at 2.10.1g. The reasoning."..since the ball remained in play on the missed FT, the clock started and the ball BECAME dead WHEN the goal was scored." The ball is live when play is allowed to continue. Becomes dead when goal scored.

They did not say the ball was dead or became dead on the missed FT. "Remained in play" means "stayed live."

Last edited by BigCat; Wed Feb 17, 2016 at 05:35pm.
Reply With Quote
  #44 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 05:15pm
Stubborn Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee View Post
THAT'S NOT A CE.

3 scenarios, 2 outcomes

1) The officials announce 2 shots and play as such, and B1 rebounds thinking it was only 1 and goes down and scores a basket while everyone else is just staring at this kid run like a spaz down the court to score.
OUTCOME: Make a joke to make the kid feel better because he's embarrassed enough, don't score the 2 and shoot the second FT as normal.

2) The officials announce 2 shots and play as such, except ALL kids brain fart and play the rebound. B1 goes down and score.
OUTCOME: If the officials didn't stop play before the score then the score counts and we go CE with 1 shot and no one on line and then resume at POE.

3) Officials announce 1&1 and things play out like described.
OUTCOME: See outcome of #2.

In any of the scenarios the officials screwed up.
Yes, I know what I just said is not the CE. Not awarding the merited free throw is the error.

So, to more directly answer Tim's question....

The ball became live with the missed free throw.
Reply With Quote
  #45 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 05:49pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
Tim, look at 2.10.1g. The reasoning."..since the ball remained in play on the missed FT, the clock started and the ball BECAME dead WHEN the goal was scored." The ball is live when play is allowed to continue. Becomes dead when goal scored.

They did not say the ball was dead or became dead on the missed FT. "Remained in play" means "stayed live."
Just got home where my books are. Based on 2.10.1.g I'll agree that assuming there was actual play bedisdes B1's actions this would apply. Unfortunately they're aren't enough details in the OP to confirm that.
__________________
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Correct that error wanja Basketball 6 Thu Sep 16, 2010 01:03pm
Timing Error - To Correct or Not to Correct cford Basketball 15 Sat Feb 21, 2009 09:49am
Is NFHS Case Book Play 2.10.1 Sit. G(d) (re: corr. error situation) really an error? rpirtle Basketball 3 Wed Dec 24, 2008 03:25pm
Correct a "rules" error? BayStateRef Basketball 15 Wed Jan 03, 2007 09:52am
correct uncorrectable error? lookin2improve Basketball 12 Sun Jan 22, 2006 01:03pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:43am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1