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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 19, 2006, 10:44pm
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Unhappy

Sit:
A1 fouled on successful attempt. When administering what should have been 1 shot, U2 tells players '2 shots'. A1 misses FT, A2 sticks back rebound while team B watches...aside from the obvious lack of communication by the crew, is there anything that can be done after the fact? How do you pacify B's head coach?

thanks
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 19, 2006, 11:29pm
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Go to the alternate posession arrow.

Let the coach vent and get the ball in play.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 19, 2006, 11:31pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Go to the alternate posession arrow.

Let the coach vent and get the ball in play.
Wipe the basket ??
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 20, 2006, 12:07am
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Yes, wipe the basket. There's a case book play, which covers this that I posted in another thread just this morning, but I'll post it here for you as well.



OFFICIALS PROVIDE ERRONEOUS INFORMATION
8.6.1 SITUATION: A1 is about to attempt the first of a one-and-one free-throw situation. The administering official steps in and erroneously informs players that two shots will be taken. A1's first attempt is unsuccessful. The missed shot is rebounded by: (a) B1, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw; (b) A2, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw; or (c) B2, with several players from both teams attempting to secure the rebound. The officials recognize their error at this point. RULING: In (a) and (b), the official's error clearly put one team at a disadvantage (players stood motionless and didn't attempt to rebound). Play should be whistled dead immediately and resumed using the alternating-possession procedure. In (c), both teams made an attempt to rebound despite the official's error and had an equal opportunity to gain possession of the rebound. Play should continue.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 20, 2006, 10:07am
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thanks for the info...I would've gotten this one wrong...
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 20, 2006, 02:38pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Yes, wipe the basket. There's a case book play, which covers this that I posted in another thread just this morning, but I'll post it here for you as well.



OFFICIALS PROVIDE ERRONEOUS INFORMATION
8.6.1 SITUATION: A1 is about to attempt the first of a one-and-one free-throw situation. The administering official steps in and erroneously informs players that two shots will be taken. A1's first attempt is unsuccessful. The missed shot is rebounded by: (a) B1, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw; (b) A2, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw; or (c) B2, with several players from both teams attempting to secure the rebound. The officials recognize their error at this point. RULING: In (a) and (b), the official's error clearly put one team at a disadvantage (players stood motionless and didn't attempt to rebound). Play should be whistled dead immediately and resumed using the alternating-possession procedure. In (c), both teams made an attempt to rebound despite the official's error and had an equal opportunity to gain possession of the rebound. Play should continue.
It says the play should be whistled dead immediately, but once the basket does happen, I'm not sure you can wipe it away.

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 20, 2006, 02:42pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by lookin2improve
Quote:
Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Go to the alternate posession arrow.

Let the coach vent and get the ball in play.
Wipe the basket ??
My read on "should be stopped immediatly" means the action ongoing is invalid. If the basket is made - go to correctable proceedures.

Walkthrough:
Erroneous Information
Coach Complains
Signal Alt-Posession
Resume Play
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"Officiating does not build character. It reveal's it" - Ref Daddy
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 21, 2006, 04:42am
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
It says the play should be whistled dead immediately, but once the basket does happen, I'm not sure you can wipe it away.

You may well be correct. It all depends upon whether one believes that the official erroneously stating two shots makes the ball dead following a miss on the first FT. If so, then the ball that went through the basket was a dead ball and no points can be scored. The game can be resumed with the AP arrow from the point at which the ball became dead.

However, there certainly is a case to be made that just because the official misinformed the players the ball still becomes live on the miss as it correctly should have. In this case unless an official blows the whistle prior to the try being in flight, the basket must count.

I'm going with the first interpretation, if I am ever in that situation. I am probably bending the rules, but I do have some soft ground to stand on.

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 21, 2006, 06:19am
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Quote:
Originally posted by lookin2improve
Sit:
A1 fouled on successful attempt. When administering what should have been 1 shot, U2 tells players '2 shots'. A1 misses FT, A2 sticks back rebound while team B watches...aside from the obvious lack of communication by the crew, is there anything that can be done after the fact? How do you pacify B's head coach?

thanks
This is a situation that I wish the Fed had an approved ruling on. I do not believe that you should penalize the kids that "listened to the ref". They were told that after the first shot, the ball will be dead.

As T, I always ALWAYS double check to hear what the L says for the number of FTs coming. So in reality, A2 secured a legitimate rebound. By fairness, others didn't have a chance to rebound as they thought the ball becomes dead after the attempt.

How do you feel about an AR that says:

  • the basket is wiped out due to the error caused by the official

  • A keeps their rebound

  • A gets a throw-in on the endline
  • __________________
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      #10 (permalink)  
    Old Sat Jan 21, 2006, 10:06am
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by JugglingReferee

    This is a situation that I wish the Fed had an approved ruling on. I do not believe that you should penalize the kids that "listened to the ref". They were told that after the first shot, the ball will be dead.
    There is a case on this (8.6.1 in last year's book) -- if only one player reacts, the ball is dead. If several players react, then no error occurred. The definition of "several" is judgment.

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      #11 (permalink)  
    Old Sat Jan 21, 2006, 12:38pm
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by bob jenkins
    Quote:
    Originally posted by JugglingReferee

    This is a situation that I wish the Fed had an approved ruling on. I do not believe that you should penalize the kids that "listened to the ref". They were told that after the first shot, the ball will be dead.
    There is a case on this (8.6.1 in last year's book) -- if only one player reacts, the ball is dead. If several players react, then no error occurred. The definition of "several" is judgment.

    I see. Since an extra shot wasn't awarded this actually isn't a correctable error, which is what I was thinking. Also, reading the OP I see that the put-back happened immediately, so the case play is quite directly applicable. Just another little detail to keep in mind.
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      #12 (permalink)  
    Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 03:23am
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by bob jenkins
    Quote:
    Originally posted by JugglingReferee

    This is a situation that I wish the Fed had an approved ruling on. I do not believe that you should penalize the kids that "listened to the ref". They were told that after the first shot, the ball will be dead.
    There is a case on this (8.6.1 in last year's book) -- if only one player reacts, the ball is dead. If several players react, then no error occurred. The definition of "several" is judgment.

    Bob, I posted that case play already in this thread. However, it does not state that the ball becomes dead automatically. It actually says that the play SHOULD be WHISTLED DEAD immediately. However, if no official blows a whistle then the ball isn't dead is it?
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      #13 (permalink)  
    Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 01:03pm
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by Nevadaref
    Quote:
    Originally posted by bob jenkins
    Quote:
    Originally posted by JugglingReferee

    This is a situation that I wish the Fed had an approved ruling on. I do not believe that you should penalize the kids that "listened to the ref". They were told that after the first shot, the ball will be dead.
    There is a case on this (8.6.1 in last year's book) -- if only one player reacts, the ball is dead. If several players react, then no error occurred. The definition of "several" is judgment.

    Bob, I posted that case play already in this thread. However, it does not state that the ball becomes dead automatically. It actually says that the play SHOULD be WHISTLED DEAD immediately. However, if no official blows a whistle then the ball isn't dead is it?
    The intent of the case is clear to me. I'd use the (paraphrased) "an official's whistle rarely causes the ball to become dead -- it's dead already" fundamental.
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