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Old Sun Feb 15, 2009, 01:17pm
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Timing Error - To Correct or Not to Correct

This happened in a Division 2 game yesterday.

Team B (Visitors) is winning by 1 point. Player A1 drives to the basket and the ball goes out of bounds. The clock operator did not stop the clock on time and the Lead determines that 0.5 seconds should be on the game clock. The official tells the timer to put 0.5 seconds on the clock which the timer complies with. The clock shows __:_5 after the timer resets the clock. A1 throws the ball in from the end line into the middle of the paint to A2. A2 catches and shoots very quickly. The officials counted the basket and left the floor. The problem was that the LED lights & horn did not go off right after the shot. The LED lights & horn went off 5 SECONDS after she caught the ball. The timer had put 5 seconds by accident instead of 0.5 seconds!

There was NO monitor at the table. I couldn't find an AR ruling specific to this play. The rules for fixing timing errors refer to "the failure to start or stop the game clock properly". It doesn't say failure to put the correct time on the clock. Could this be considered not "starting" the game clock properly?

What could the officials do BY RULE to fix this mess?
1) Count the basket and declare the game over. (What they did and what seems to be the correct ruling.)
2) Disallow the basket and declare the game over.
3) Disallow the basket, put 0.5 seconds on the clock and redo the play. (Seems like the fair thing to do but I don't think this is supported by a rule.)


Section 6. Officials Duties in games without Replay/
Television Equipment

Art. 1. When an obvious timing mistake has occurred because of the failure
to start or stop the game clock properly, the mistake shall be corrected only
when the referee has definite information relative to the time involved.
After the ball is in play, such a mistake, shall be corrected during the first
dead ball or during the next live ball before the ball is touched inbounds or
out of bounds by a player. When the clock should have been continuously
running, the mistake shall be corrected before the second live ball is touched
inbounds or out of bounds by a player.
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Old Sun Feb 15, 2009, 03:31pm
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The key in the rule is "definite information". Any count by an official while the ball is live would be definite. Would there be a count in this situation to have definite knowledge? Game awareness, should official with the clock count when ball becomes live for that definite knowledge?

If you do not have definite knowledge, play is good. If you have definite knowledge, disallow the basket, game over (unless a tie). No do-overs.

Last edited by shishstripes; Sun Feb 15, 2009 at 03:33pm.
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Old Sun Feb 15, 2009, 05:44pm
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I had a girls varsity game a few weeks back that sounds similar to this. Team A has the ball down 1, 2.1 seconds to go inbounding under their own hoop. A-1 inbounds cleanly, A-2 grabs it, I "chop the clock", A-2 starts to dribble, B-1 knocks it away, ball is loose. A-1 steps in, picks it up, two dribbles. If this seems like a lot for 2.1 seconds, you are correct. The clock didn't start until the ball became loose. My partner blows his whistle, game over.
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Old Sun Feb 15, 2009, 07:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsturdy5 View Post
I had a girls varsity game a few weeks back that sounds similar to this. Team A has the ball down 1, 2.1 seconds to go inbounding under their own hoop. A-1 inbounds cleanly, A-2 grabs it, I "chop the clock", A-2 starts to dribble, B-1 knocks it away, ball is loose. A-1 steps in, picks it up, two dribbles. If this seems like a lot for 2.1 seconds, you are correct. The clock didn't start until the ball became loose. My partner blows his whistle, game over.
What definite knowledge did your partner use to determine 2.1 seconds? Did your P have a count?
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Old Mon Feb 16, 2009, 01:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cford View Post
This happened in a Division 2 game yesterday.

Team B (Visitors) is winning by 1 point. Player A1 drives to the basket and the ball goes out of bounds. The clock operator did not stop the clock on time and the Lead determines that 0.5 seconds should be on the game clock. The official tells the timer to put 0.5 seconds on the clock which the timer complies with. The clock shows __:_5 after the timer resets the clock. A1 throws the ball in from the end line into the middle of the paint to A2. A2 catches and shoots very quickly. The officials counted the basket and left the floor. The problem was that the LED lights & horn did not go off right after the shot. The LED lights & horn went off 5 SECONDS after she caught the ball. The timer had put 5 seconds by accident instead of 0.5 seconds!

There was NO monitor at the table. I couldn't find an AR ruling specific to this play. The rules for fixing timing errors refer to "the failure to start or stop the game clock properly". It doesn't say failure to put the correct time on the clock. Could this be considered not "starting" the game clock properly?

What could the officials do BY RULE to fix this mess?
1) Count the basket and declare the game over. (What they did and what seems to be the correct ruling.)
2) Disallow the basket and declare the game over.
3) Disallow the basket, put 0.5 seconds on the clock and redo the play. (Seems like the fair thing to do but I don't think this is supported by a rule.)


Section 6. Officials Duties in games without Replay/
Television Equipment

Art. 1. When an obvious timing mistake has occurred because of the failure
to start or stop the game clock properly, the mistake shall be corrected only
when the referee has definite information relative to the time involved.
After the ball is in play, such a mistake, shall be corrected during the first
dead ball or during the next live ball before the ball is touched inbounds or
out of bounds by a player. When the clock should have been continuously
running, the mistake shall be corrected before the second live ball is touched
inbounds or out of bounds by a player.
You know there is 1/2 second. Clearly enough by rule for a catch and shoot. They passed it in, shot the ball and scored. Plain and simple game is done.

There are no redos... Redos are never fair.....It will always give a team an advantage.

Why would you ever disallow the basket and declare the game over? Unless it was clearly shot after .5 seconds....
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Old Mon Feb 16, 2009, 01:06pm
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I'm with Kelvin, I don't see where there is an obvious timing error in the OP.

If the shooter had missed, would it have been fair to give them another chance? No, and making them take another shot wouldn't be fair, either.
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Old Mon Feb 16, 2009, 02:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin green View Post
You know there is 1/2 second. Clearly enough by rule for a catch and shoot. They passed it in, shot the ball and scored. Plain and simple game is done.

There are no redos... Redos are never fair.....It will always give a team an advantage.

Why would you ever disallow the basket and declare the game over? Unless it was clearly shot after .5 seconds....
The problem is I got to see the game film of the play and the catch and shoot happened in .6-.7 seconds (with my stop watch).

It is next to impossible for officials to know if the shot happened in 0.5 or 0.6 seconds with out a clock. In this case where 5 seconds was erroneously put on the game clock I feel that a redo would be the fair thing to do. I'm not saying that I'm justified by rule or that I would do that in the same situation but that I had never seen or heard of this and wanted to talk about the correct way to handle it.
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Old Mon Feb 16, 2009, 02:07pm
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By NCAA rule, the officials can go to a court side monitor and use a stopwatch to time the catch and shoot. I am surprised by there being no evidence of a court side monitor.

I know it is required at all D1 games but not all d2 and d3 have such devices.
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Old Mon Feb 16, 2009, 02:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by All_Heart View Post
The problem is I got to see the game film of the play and the catch and shoot happened in .6-.7 seconds (with my stop watch).

It is next to impossible for officials to know if the shot happened in 0.5 or 0.6 seconds with out a clock. In this case where 5 seconds was erroneously put on the game clock I feel that a redo would be the fair thing to do. I'm not saying that I'm justified by rule or that I would do that in the same situation but that I had never seen or heard of this and wanted to talk about the correct way to handle it.
.2 seconds is not an "obvious error."
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Old Mon Feb 16, 2009, 03:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by All_Heart View Post
The problem is I got to see the game film of the play and the catch and shoot happened in .6-.7 seconds (with my stop watch).

It is next to impossible for officials to know if the shot happened in 0.5 or 0.6 seconds with out a clock. In this case where 5 seconds was erroneously put on the game clock I feel that a redo would be the fair thing to do. I'm not saying that I'm justified by rule or that I would do that in the same situation but that I had never seen or heard of this and wanted to talk about the correct way to handle it.
You cant redo this play. It really is not the fair thing to do...

The redo takes away from the offense a "scored basket" and gives defense new time to set up etc, etc.... In the play described has two potential outcomes. Score the basket like the officials did, or wipe it off and not count it because it did not get off in time...If there was no monitor officials did what they needed to do...
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Old Wed Feb 18, 2009, 10:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbking View Post
By NCAA rule, the officials can go to a court side monitor and use a stopwatch to time the catch and shoot. I am surprised by there being no evidence of a court side monitor.

I know it is required at all D1 games but not all d2 and d3 have such devices.
Apparently not............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyLRLADclUI
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Old Wed Feb 18, 2009, 10:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
.2 seconds is not an "obvious error."
No, it's not. And certainly if the error is really that small, no way a ref could have "definite knowledge". But how long could the shot take for the ref to claim he had definite knowledge, assuming he has a count? Gets to a full chop and the ball still clearly in the shooter's hands? In the OP, when does the error become "obvious"?
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Old Wed Feb 18, 2009, 10:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cford View Post
This happened in a Division 2 game yesterday.

Team B (Visitors) is winning by 1 point. Player A1 drives to the basket and the ball goes out of bounds. The clock operator did not stop the clock on time and the Lead determines that 0.5 seconds should be on the game clock. The official tells the timer to put 0.5 seconds on the clock which the timer complies with. The clock shows __:_5 after the timer resets the clock. A1 throws the ball in from the end line into the middle of the paint to A2. A2 catches and shoots very quickly. The officials counted the basket and left the floor. The problem was that the LED lights & horn did not go off right after the shot. The LED lights & horn went off 5 SECONDS after she caught the ball. The timer had put 5 seconds by accident instead of 0.5 seconds!

There was NO monitor at the table. I couldn't find an AR ruling specific to this play. The rules for fixing timing errors refer to "the failure to start or stop the game clock properly". It doesn't say failure to put the correct time on the clock. Could this be considered not "starting" the game clock properly?

What could the officials do BY RULE to fix this mess?
1) Count the basket and declare the game over. (What they did and what seems to be the correct ruling.)
2) Disallow the basket and declare the game over.
3) Disallow the basket, put 0.5 seconds on the clock and redo the play. (Seems like the fair thing to do but I don't think this is supported by a rule.)


Section 6. Officials Duties in games without Replay/
Television Equipment

Art. 1. When an obvious timing mistake has occurred because of the failure
to start or stop the game clock properly, the mistake shall be corrected only
when the referee has definite information relative to the time involved.
After the ball is in play, such a mistake, shall be corrected during the first
dead ball or during the next live ball before the ball is touched inbounds or
out of bounds by a player. When the clock should have been continuously
running, the mistake shall be corrected before the second live ball is touched
inbounds or out of bounds by a player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by All_Heart View Post
The problem is I got to see the game film of the play and the catch and shoot happened in .6-.7 seconds (with my stop watch).

It is next to impossible for officials to know if the shot happened in 0.5 or 0.6 seconds with out a clock. In this case where 5 seconds was erroneously put on the game clock I feel that a redo would be the fair thing to do. I'm not saying that I'm justified by rule or that I would do that in the same situation but that I had never seen or heard of this and wanted to talk about the correct way to handle it.
All Heart,

By your own measurement, the shot was away in .6 - .7 seconds. You knew exactly what was going to happen with the play. It was still within 1/10 to 2/10s of a second. There is no way that the human eye can decipher the difference between .5 and .6 seconds. The officials knew that there was only 1/2 of one second remaining -- time enough for a catch and shoot, but not enough for a catch, dribble and shoot. The player caught it, the timer started the clock, the shot was released, the shot went in.

A very improbable ending -- happening once is rare, enough. To ask the team to redo the play would be grossly unfair to the offensive team. Had the player caught, dribbled and shot or caught, head-n-ball faked and shot, (if you had gotten to say 1.2 to 1.5 seconds prior to the release), I could see waving the shot off. In this case, it was close enough that I am going to count the basket. The ball could not have reasonably been ruled dead before the time would have expired. I believe that I would have ruled as the officials did in this case. Good basket, no time remaining, game over.

Of course, the moral in this situation is ALWAYS double check to ensure that the clock is set correctly. When in doubt, have the timer set the clock, start the clock and see if the horn goes off when you expect it.
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Old Thu Feb 19, 2009, 02:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juulie Downs View Post
No, it's not. And certainly if the error is really that small, no way a ref could have "definite knowledge". But how long could the shot take for the ref to claim he had definite knowledge, assuming he has a count? Gets to a full chop and the ball still clearly in the shooter's hands? In the OP, when does the error become "obvious"?
I would say when the official's count reaches one.
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Old Thu Feb 19, 2009, 05:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cford View Post
This happened in a Division 2 game yesterday.

Team B (Visitors) is winning by 1 point. Player A1 drives to the basket and the ball goes out of bounds. The clock operator did not stop the clock on time and the Lead determines that 0.5 seconds should be on the game clock. The official tells the timer to put 0.5 seconds on the clock which the timer complies with. The clock shows __:_5 after the timer resets the clock. A1 throws the ball in from the end line into the middle of the paint to A2. A2 catches and shoots very quickly. The officials counted the basket and left the floor. The problem was that the LED lights & horn did not go off right after the shot. The LED lights & horn went off 5 SECONDS after she caught the ball. The timer had put 5 seconds by accident instead of 0.5 seconds!

There was NO monitor at the table. I couldn't find an AR ruling specific to this play. The rules for fixing timing errors refer to "the failure to start or stop the game clock properly". It doesn't say failure to put the correct time on the clock. Could this be considered not "starting" the game clock properly?

What could the officials do BY RULE to fix this mess?
1) Count the basket and declare the game over. (What they did and what seems to be the correct ruling.)
2) Disallow the basket and declare the game over.
3) Disallow the basket, put 0.5 seconds on the clock and redo the play. (Seems like the fair thing to do but I don't think this is supported by a rule.)


Section 6. Officials Duties in games without Replay/
Television Equipment
Art. 1. When an obvious timing mistake has occurred because of the failure
to start or stop the game clock properly, the mistake shall be corrected only
when the referee has definite information relative to the time involved.
After the ball is in play, such a mistake, shall be corrected during the first
dead ball or during the next live ball before the ball is touched inbounds or
out of bounds by a player. When the clock should have been continuously
running, the mistake shall be corrected before the second live ball is touched
inbounds or out of bounds by a player.
All the more reason for officials to know how scoreclocks work, and to double-check their understanding/knowledge of the displays with their expected display on the clock.
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