Casebook play 9.2.2 Question.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Adam

The key to the case play, IMO, is not the fact that B makes a basket. The point was to resolve a debate over when to call the violation, and it is to be called as soon as it's clear the new offensive team has no intention of making a correct throw in.

They added the piece about B making a basket in order to ensure we don't credit b with the score because we think it's too late to correct.

So much easier, for me, to just start the five second count. I don't want to call a violation because one player is screwing up. A1 passes to A2 who then runs out of bounds to pass it in telling A1 they messed up. Or A1 passes it to A2 and A3 runs over to say hey you need to get out of bounds before throwing it in. I can imagine problems with blowing a whistle judging intent. I've never had or seen anything go wrong with starting the five second count and then calling a violation if the team doesn't fix it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Dad

So much easier, for me, to just start the five second count. I don't want to call a violation because one player is screwing up. A1 passes to A2 who then runs out of bounds to pass it in telling A1 they messed up. Or A1 passes it to A2 and A3 runs over to say hey you need to get out of bounds before throwing it in. I can imagine problems with blowing a whistle judging intent. I've never had or seen anything go wrong with starting the five second count and then calling a violation if the team doesn't fix it.

I'd wait and see where A2 goes with it once he receives the pass. A3 won't get the chance to fix it.

The NFHS seems (to me) to have made it clear they just want us to call the violation rather than wait 5 seconds for the inevitable.

Your way isn't bad, unless B is running a press. What if A2 travels or double dribbles? Everyone is going to wonder why you didn't call that only to call a throw-in violation 3-4 seconds later. I think it avoids confusion.

If A1 steps towards OOB, but never makes it before throwing up court, would you just keep counting to 5? If B2 fouls A2 going up for a shot while you're at 4 in your count?

Too many odd variables that get avoided if you just call the violation when it's clear they aren't going to do it right. No need to judge intent or read minds, it's pretty clear from their actions.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tophat67

So casebook play states....
Casebook 9.2.2: A1 scores a basket. After the ball goes through the net, B1 grabs it and makes a move toward the end line as though preparing to make a throw-in. However, B1 never legally steps out of bounds. B1 immediately passes the ball up the court to a fast-breaking teammate, who score a basket. RULING: Cancel Team B’s goal, throw-in violation on B1. The ball was at B1’s disposal after the made basket to make a throw-in. B1 must be out of bounds to make a legal throw-in. (7-4-3; 7-5-7).

So my question is for a situation if there was no made basket as in the above case. When do you whistle the ball dead and call the violation? After a 5 second count?

I believe the NF used to take a stance on both continuing a 5 second count or calling a violation immediately (It was in the Guidebook they put out). I would only call the violation immediately. I am sure someone will look this up or find it somewhere, since people love to live on what was posted 10 years ago as gospel.

Peace

[SNIPERBBB]

Nothing wrong with starting the count. An older case book play stated that once it became obvious that the offense would not be able to complete a legal throw-in that the violation is to be called.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Dad

I'm going with a five second count. The player doesn't have to be out of bounds or even have the ball for us to start counting.

The one exception is the 3A varsity assigner who wants us to tell the players on this play and "correct" it for them. i.e. we get the ball and then pass it to them for a throw-in. The league is on the same page so I'm just going with whatever my assigner wants.

No you don't. You do the correct thing and tell your assigner that the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee is very clear as to how this play is to be handled.

MTD, Sr.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'd wait and see where A2 goes with it once he receives the pass. A3 won't get the chance to fix it.

The NFHS seems (to me) to have made it clear they just want us to call the violation rather than wait 5 seconds for the inevitable.

Your way isn't bad, unless B is running a press. What if A2 travels or double dribbles? Everyone is going to wonder why you didn't call that only to call a throw-in violation 3-4 seconds later. I think it avoids confusion.

If A1 steps towards OOB, but never makes it before throwing up court, would you just keep counting to 5? If B2 fouls A2 going up for a shot while you're at 4 in your count?

Too many odd variables that get avoided if you just call the violation when it's clear they aren't going to do it right. No need to judge intent or read minds, it's pretty clear from their actions.

Yeah, I lied, mostly. I'm always starting a five second count, but not necessarily finishing it. There's been times where I've blown a play dead before finishing my count. Maybe a better way to put it is I'm not blowing a violation just because A1 doesn't step OOB before throwing the ball in.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

No you don't. You do the correct thing and tell your assigner that the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee is very clear as to how this play is to be handled.

MTD, Sr.

Correct thing for who? The league would go right on doing what it's doing. I on the other hand would lose $120 nights and 3A votes.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Dad

Yeah, I lied, mostly. I'm always starting a five second count, but not necessarily finishing it. There's been times where I've blown a play dead before finishing my count. Maybe a better way to put it is I'm not blowing a violation just because A1 doesn't step OOB before throwing the ball in.

I always start the 5-second count as soon as the ball is at the team's disposal for throw-in, but as Adam said, will also whistle the violation as soon as it's clear they aren't going to make a legal throw-in.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

No you don't. You do the correct thing and tell your assigner that the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee is very clear as to how this play is to be handled.

MTD, Sr.

Sorry, Mark. We all have to answer to the people who assign us games. This is no exception. While you could certainly bring the play to the assigner's attention, if he's not convinced, you need to call it his way if you want games.

No one here gets games from the NFHS.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Dad

I'm going with a five second count. The player doesn't have to be out of bounds or even have the ball for us to start counting.

The one exception is the 3A varsity assigner who wants us to tell the players on this play and "correct" it for them. i.e. we get the ball and then pass it to them for a throw-in. The league is on the same page so I'm just going with whatever my assigner wants.

That would be incorrect....both going with the 5 count AND correcting the players.

The entire point of the case play is that it is a violation as soon as the team moves up the court bypassing the throwin for failing to execute the throwin from OOB.

The 2nd goal in the case is just a distraction.

[MechanicGuy]

Originally Posted by Dad

So much easier, for me, to just start the five second count. I don't want to call a violation because one player is screwing up. A1 passes to A2 who then runs out of bounds to pass it in telling A1 they messed up. Or A1 passes it to A2 and A3 runs over to say hey you need to get out of bounds before throwing it in. I can imagine problems with blowing a whistle judging intent. I've never had or seen anything go wrong with starting the five second count and then calling a violation if the team doesn't fix it.

...and if B steals a pass and scores during your 5-second count?

[BryanV21]

By the looks of things I was wrong to say to start a 5-second count.

Oh well... not my first mistake, and not my last.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy

...and if B steals a pass and scores during your 5-second count?

Calling a violation. My original posts were wrong, but when I posted them I meant I'm not calling a violation if A1 and A2 are alone in their BC. I'm giving A2 a moment to notice if A1 didn't legally make a throw-in.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Dad

Calling a violation. My original posts were wrong, but when I posted them I meant I'm not calling a violation if A1 and A2 are alone in their BC. I'm giving A2 a moment to notice if A1 didn't legally make a throw-in.

I think that's fair, but A2 needs to react pretty fast to avoid the violation.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Dad

I'm going with a five second count. The player doesn't have to be out of bounds or even have the ball for us to start counting.

The one exception is the 3A varsity assigner who wants us to tell the players on this play and "correct" it for them. i.e. we get the ball and then pass it to them for a throw-in. The league is on the same page so I'm just going with whatever my assigner wants.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

No you don't. You do the correct thing and tell your assigner that the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee is very clear as to how this play is to be handled.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by Dad

Correct thing for who? The league would go right on doing what it's doing. I on the other hand would lose $120 nights and 3A votes.

Originally Posted by Adam

Sorry, Mark. We all have to answer to the people who assign us games. This is no exception. While you could certainly bring the play to the assigner's attention, if he's not convinced, you need to call it his way if you want games.

No one here gets games from the NFHS.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That would be incorrect....both going with the 5 count AND correcting the players.

The entire point of the case play is that it is a violation as soon as the team moves up the court bypassing the throwin for failing to execute the throwin from OOB.

The 2nd goal in the case is just a distraction.

Dad has stated that he officiates in a H.S. league in which the league assigner has instructed the officials to not follow the NFHS Rules and Casebook Plays with respect to the situation that we are discussing. I took the position that officials are ethically and professionally obligated to conduct the game per the rules. Some posters have taken me to task because I advocated doing the correct thing rather than doing what the assigner wanted.

We are professionals and our code of ethics requires to apply the rules and casebook plays correctly, and to knowingly do otherwise is unethical conduct.

I have nothing further to say because there is nothing else that anybody can say.

MTD, Sr.