NCAAW Shot Clock Violation - Throw In Spot

[bob jenkins]

I know we've discussed this before on the forum.

From the NCAAW Arbiter Site:

QUESTION:

When there is a shot clock violation, either the ball not released prior to the horn, or the ball is released, but does not strike the rim, from where is the ball put back into play? From the end line, or the point closest to where the shooter was located.

ANSWER:

The answer depends upon how the shot-clock violation occurs. If the ball is still in the hand(s) of the shooter when the shot-clock horn sounds, the opponent’s are awarded the ball for a throw-in at the out-of-bounds spot nearest to where the violation occurs (in this case, where the player was standing with the ball in her control). If the try is released, the shot-clock horn sounds and the try fails to strike the ring or flange, then the opponent’s throw-in will be made from the out-of-bounds spot nearest to where the try is unsuccessful.

[johnny d]

So what part is up for discussion? The ruling for both situations sounds reasonable to me.

[bob jenkins]

Some would say that the throw-in spot is from the "shooter's location" in either case (since the ball wasn't released in such a manner to strike the ring, that's the spot of the violation)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Some would say that the throw-in spot is from the "shooter's location" in either case (since the ball wasn't released in such a manner to strike the ring, that's the spot of the violation)

Guess it depends on how we judge the end of the try. Is it when it is obvious that the ball would not hit the ring? Or is it when the ball touches a player or the floor?

[jeschmit]

It's not a violation for when the shooter releases the ball, it's a violation for when it doesn't hit the rim. Put the ball in closest to where the violation occurred.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by jeschmit

It's not a violation for when the shooter releases the ball, it's a violation for when it doesn't hit the rim. Put the ball in closest to where the violation occurred.

Read the definition of ball location. A pass or try in flight has the location of where the ball last touched the court or a player. Therefore an air creates a violation from the location of the shooter.
I believe that we can all agree that the violation occurs before the unsuccessful try strikes the floor or a player standing near the basket.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Read the definition of ball location. A pass or try in flight has the location of where the ball last touched the court or a player. Therefore an air creates a violation from the location of the shooter.
I believe that we can all agree that the violation occurs before the unsuccessful try strikes the floor or a player standing near the basket.

Ball location doesn't really have anything to do with this (well, it can, but not in the situation where the try was released). It's all about the spot of the violation.

Compare this to a throw-in. It's a violation for "fails to pass the ball ... so that ... it touches a player ..."

The spot is where the pass failed, not where the ball went OOB.

The wording for a shot clock violation does not say "fails to release the ball so the ball strikes the ring." It says it's a violation "when .... the try does not strike the ring."

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Read the definition of ball location. A pass or try in flight has the location of where the ball last touched the court or a player.

The bolded and underlined text above is incorrect by rule in NCAA-M. Not sure about NCAA-W.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by johnny d

The bolded and underlined text above is incorrect by rule in NCAA-M. Not sure about NCAA-W.

7-5.1.a.1 is the same in both, I think:

1. A ball that is not in contact with a player or the playing court retains
the same status as when it was last in contact with a player or the
playing court. This does not apply to a try in flight.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by johnny d

The bolded and underlined text above is incorrect by rule in NCAA-M. Not sure about NCAA-W.

You are going to have to prove otherwise to me. Specifically, what are you claiming is the location of a ball in flight during a pass or try?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

7-5.1.a.1 is the same in both, I think:

1. A ball that is not in contact with a player or the playing court retains
the same status as when it was last in contact with a player or the
playing court. This does not apply to a try in flight.

Bob, please don't forget that this is from the section specific to a POI throw-in. If you also include the sentence which immediately precedes what you have quoted, you will note that it states "the team that was in control" and that is why "This does not apply to a try in flight." is included in the next paragraph. The rules writers wished to be clear that this throw-in rule does not apply for a try as there is no team control.

"a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at a designated spot nearest
to where the ball was located when the stoppage occurred"
Bob's quoted passage now follows here.

[JetMetFan]

The last line of the penalty for a shot-clock violation reads as follows (NCAAW 9-2 through 12, PENALTY):

The ball shall be awarded to an opponent for a throw-in at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred.

In the case of a try that was released prior to the shot-clock horn but fails to touch the rim, the violation occurs near the basket. The designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred would be the end line. I can think of instances where the ensuing throw-in wouldn't be on the end line but those involve the try being blocked and falling below ring level in an area where the throw-in would take place on a sideline.

I don't have an NCAAM's rule book but if the rule is the same the wording will be as well.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You are going to have to prove otherwise to me. Specifically, what are you claiming is the location of a ball in flight during a pass or try?



Bob, please don't forget that this is from the section specific to a POI throw-in. If you also include the sentence which immediately precedes what you have quoted, you will note that it states "the team that was in control" and that is why "This does not apply to a try in flight." is included in the next paragraph. The rules writers wished to be clear that this throw-in rule does not apply for a try as there is no team control.

"a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at a designated spot nearest
to where the ball was located when the stoppage occurred"
Bob's quoted passage now follows here.

But, that's the only spot (I think) where "ball location" is close to being defined in the NCAA book.

And, again, "ball location" specifically has (almost) nothing to do with a shot clock violation (or I think, any other violation) -- it's the spot of the violation.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Read the definition of ball location. A pass or try in flight has the location of where the ball last touched the court or a player. ...

There's a definition of ball location in the NCAA-Men's rule book? I sure can't find it.

I'm not saying I disagree with your premise, just that I can't find such a definition.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You are going to have to prove otherwise to me. Specifically, what are you claiming is the location of a ball in flight during a pass or try?



Bob, please don't forget that this is from the section specific to a POI throw-in. If you also include the sentence which immediately precedes what you have quoted, you will note that it states "the team that was in control" and that is why "This does not apply to a try in flight." is included in the next paragraph. The rules writers wished to be clear that this throw-in rule does not apply for a try as there is no team control.

"a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at a designated spot nearest
to where the ball was located when the stoppage occurred"
Bob's quoted passage now follows here.

Bob provided the proof for you in black and white. This is the only spot in the NCAA-M book that says anything at all about the location of the ball while in flight for a try. You can try to limit this definition to determining the POI for a throw in, however, the case book ruling about where to put the ball in play for shot clock violations clearly indicates that NCAA believes otherwise.

My position is supported by a statement directly from the NCAA-M rule book. Your position is not. The burden of proof is on you.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You are going to have to prove otherwise to me. Specifically, what are you claiming is the location of a ball in flight during a pass or try?



Bob, please don't forget that this is from the section specific to a POI throw-in. If you also include the sentence which immediately precedes what you have quoted, you will note that it states "the team that was in control" and that is why "This does not apply to a try in flight." is included in the next paragraph. The rules writers wished to be clear that this throw-in rule does not apply for a try as there is no team control.

"a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at a designated spot nearest
to where the ball was located when the stoppage occurred"
Bob's quoted passage now follows here.

i think they are saying pretty clearly that a try in flight does not retain the same status as when the ball was last in contact with a player. The second sentence modifies the first. Take a look also at 7-5.1d. If there is no team control due to a try in flight and try is unsuccessful the ball is awarded to the team entitled to the arrow at "spot nearest to where the try was unsuccessful." Also, see AR 90.