Count the basket?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

You have to look at your chart for where the foul occurs and the relation to where we inbounds the ball. The simplest diagram is start at a point at the top of the three point arc and draw a straight line to each of the 2 intersecting points of the three point line to the endline.

Close, but almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades ...

Originally Posted by BigCat

As far as where you take the ball inbounds..it is the inside area of the key and then a point from the "elbow" (where lane lines and FT line meet) to the dead corner. looks like a spaceship.

Better, but it's not a spaceship, it's a rocket ship ...

Rocket Ship Diagram © 2009, Back In The Saddle

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In which version, 2015-16?

In my paper back 2014/15 case book and electronic 2014/15.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BigCat

7.5.7E used to say the foul was near the block. It does not now. It simply says A3 commits a foul on B3. nothing more.

As far as where you take the ball inbounds..it is the inside area of the key and then a point from the "elbow" (where lane lines and FT line meet) to the dead corner. looks like a spaceship. anywhere within that area goes end line.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In which version, 2015-16?

Originally Posted by BigCat

In my paper back 2014/15 case book and electronic 2014/15.

The 2014-15 Case Book still had the phrase "near the bottom block"

7.5.7 SITUATION E:

While A1's three-point field-goal attempt is in flight, A3 fouls B1 (B is not in the bonus) near the bottom block area. The three-point field-goal attempt is successful.

RULING: Score the three-point goal for A1. Team B will be permitted to run the end line on the ensuing throw-in. (6-7-7 Exception 2)

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The 2014-15 Case Book still had the phrase "near the bottom block"

7.5.7 SITUATION E:

While A1's three-point field-goal attempt is in flight, A3 fouls B1 (B is not in the bonus) near the bottom block area. The three-point field-goal attempt is successful.

RULING: Score the three-point goal for A1. Team B will be permitted to run the end line on the ensuing throw-in. (6-7-7 Exception 2)

This is what my 2014/15 say
7.5.7 SITUATION E: While A1's three-point field-goal attempt is in flight, A3 fouls B1 (B is not in the bonus). The three-point field-goal attempt is successful. RULING: Score the three-point goal for A1. Team B will be permitted to move along the end line on the ensuing throw-in. (6-7-7 Exception 2)

The "near the bottom block" phrase is not present….

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BigCat

This is what my 2014/15 say
7.5.7 SITUATION E: While A1's three-point field-goal attempt is in flight, A3 fouls B1 (B is not in the bonus). The three-point field-goal attempt is successful. RULING: Score the three-point goal for A1. Team B will be permitted to move along the end line on the ensuing throw-in. (6-7-7 Exception 2)

The "near the bottom block" phrase is not present….

Is your e-version from the NFHS Central Hub on Arbiter?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Is your e-version from the NFHS Central Hub on Arbiter?

No, I went to NFHS site and it sent me to iTunes. I now have my paper version sent to me from Illinois in front of me. It is identical to my e version.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I think this pretty much covers it...


Quote:
ART. 7 . . . A throw-in anywhere along the end line after a goal ....... shall make a throw-in from the end of the court where the goal was made and from any point outside the end line and the officials shall signal such.
b. A team retains this privilege if the scoring team commits a violation or common foul (before the throw-in ends and before the bonus is in effect) and the ensuing throw-in spot would have been on the end line.



The foul in question did happen before the throwin ended. It also effectively happened "after" the shot. The spot, if it happens to be on the endline, then allows the thrower to move.

Below is how i'm reading the language of 7-5-7
Under 7-5-7, see above, The PRIVILEGE to run the end line is obtained after the goal is made. 7b then says you RETAIN (get to keep what you already have) that privilege if the scoring team COMMITS (future tense) a violation or COMMITS a foul and the ensuing throw in would have been on end line. You could read that and conclude they are talking about violations and fouls that occur after the goal has been made. The case plays on 7b involve violations and fouls which occurred after the goal was scored. 7.5.7B & C

In our case the foul did occur before the throw in ended and after the shot, as you pointed out, but not AFTER the GOAL. one could argue 7b doesn't come into play. At the time of the foul there was no privilege to run the end line and nothing to retain at that time. The ball remains live on the foul and goes in. Team B gets to run the end line because a live ball went through the basket--a goal regardless of where the foul occurred. Art 7.

My 7.7.5E case play simply says A3 fouls B1 while a try was in flight and then went in. Team B gets to run the end line. That is consistent with 7-5-7 language.

Over the years when this has happened to me the foul has always been inside the space/rocket ship--end line throw in, so this may be more of an academic exercise. What is more of a concern is that it appears as if my case book and BNRs are different. thx

[Raymond]

I just want to make sure I'm clear about what is being debated here.

If Team A commits a foul while a Team A try is in flight and the try is successful and Team B is not in the bonus, the throw-in is:

1) a designated spot throw-in determined by the spot of the foul.

2) always a non-designated spot throw-in along the endline.

3) determined by the spot of the foul. If throw-in is from the endline, Team B may run the endline.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I just want to make sure I'm clear about what is being debated here.

If Team A commits a foul while a Team A try is in flight and the try is successful and Team B is not in the bonus, the throw-in spot is:

1) a designated spot throw-in determined by the spot of the foul.

2) will always be a non-designated spot throw-in along the endline.

3) determined by the spot of the foul. If throw-in is from the endline, Team B may run the endline.

Yes, that is the question. I dont feel the language of 7b fits this situation. Based on the language 2) above appears correct to me. I wondered if there were any old interps etc. that would fit the situation better.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I just want to make sure I'm clear about what is being debated here.

If Team A commits a foul while a Team A try is in flight and the try is successful and Team B is not in the bonus, the throw-in is:

1) a designated spot throw-in determined by the spot of the foul.

2) always a non-designated spot throw-in along the endline.

3) determined by the spot of the foul. If throw-in is from the endline, Team B may run the endline.

Yes, and I don't think anyone is suggesting #1 is an option. I think the two choices really are 2 & 3.

There is some ambiguity in the rule but history suggests #3 is the correct interpretation.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Below is how i'm reading the language of 7-5-7
Under 7-5-7, see above, The PRIVILEGE to run the end line is obtained after the goal is made. 7b then says you RETAIN (get to keep what you already have) that privilege if the scoring team COMMITS (future tense) a violation or COMMITS a foul and the ensuing throw in would have been on end line. You could read that and conclude they are talking about violations and fouls that occur after the goal has been made. The case plays on 7b involve violations and fouls which occurred after the goal was scored. 7.5.7B & C

In our case the foul did occur before the throw in ended and after the shot, as you pointed out, but not AFTER the GOAL. one could argue 7b doesn't come into play. At the time of the foul there was no privilege to run the end line and nothing to retain at that time. The ball remains live on the foul and goes in. Team B gets to run the end line because a live ball went through the basket--a goal regardless of where the foul occurred. Art 7.

My 7.7.5E case play simply says A3 fouls B1 while a try was in flight and then went in. Team B gets to run the end line. That is consistent with 7-5-7 language.

Over the years when this has happened to me the foul has always been inside the space/rocket ship--end line throw in, so this may be more of an academic exercise. What is more of a concern is that it appears as if my case book and BNRs are different. thx

I think it really comes down to the idea that when a try is in flight time is not truly ordered. Some things that occur before the try ends are dealt with as if they occur after the try ends (but with the ball still considered live). The game doesn't stop at the infraction, the penalty is delayed until the ball becomes dead.


The language of the rule, and the explanations given when this rule was actually added, indicated that it was unfair for a team to lose the endline privileges because the other team committed an infraction. But, at the same time, the explanations indicated that a throw-in position farther up court was considered to not be unfair but more advantageous. If time is an issue, a location the ball part way down the court instead of on the backcourt endline would be more advantageous (with the possible exception of it being deep in a corner, but I'm going to judge that it was on the endline side of the diagonal in those cases . In fact, that is why NBA teams call timeout to advance the ball in the later parts of games....it is an advantage to move it down the court without the clock running.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I think it really comes down to the idea that when a try is in flight time is not truly ordered. Some things that occur before the try ends are dealt with as if they occur after the try ends (but with the ball still considered live). The game doesn't stop at the infraction, the penalty is delayed until the ball becomes dead.


The language of the rule, and the explanations given when this rule was actually added, indicated that it was unfair for a team to lose the endline privileges because the other team committed an infraction. But, at the same time, the explanations indicated that a throw-in position farther up court was considered to not be unfair but more advantageous. If time is an issue, a location the ball part way down the court instead of on the backcourt endline would be more advantageous (with the possible exception of it being deep in a corner, but I'm going to judge that it was on the endline side of the diagonal in those cases . In fact, that is why NBA teams call timeout to advance the ball in the later parts of games....it is an advantage to move it down the court without the clock running.

Yeah, if time is a factor id certainly want it up the floor on the side. This is more of a test question type thing because is just doesnt happen enough to really matter. If time isnt an issue it really isnt that big of a deal to be on end line or side line. If you cant get the ball inbounds your going to lose...

I could see nfhs saying keep it simple-if the last thing that occurs is a made basket then end line throw in. I guess what id like to know is how many books show 7.5.7E with the "near the block" language? my 2014/15 stuff does not say that. BNR said his does. different language in what are supposed to be same book is a problem..