Count the basket?

[BatteryPowered]

Had a situation last night and I need some guidance. I am T, middle of the 3rd quarter (Girls Varisty...not that it matters). A1 puts up a 3 point attempt and while the ball is in the air my partner calls A5 for a push. The attempt was good and I give the signal as my partner is coming out, waving his arms like a windmill in a hurricane. He waves off the basket and awards B the ball for a spot throw-in on the baseline. I thought the basket should have counted but at this point A was up by 35 and it wasn't worth getting into a debate...especially since the coach for A didn't make a sound.

After the game my partner didn't want to discuss the play. My rule book wasn't in my bag (that mistake has been corrected) and I forgot to look when I got home. Should the basket have counted? It was clearly in flight when the foul was committed.

Thanks,

[johnny d]

Yes the basket should have counted. Yes your partner was/is an asswipe for not knowing the rule and more importantly for not being willing to discuss the play afterwards.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BatteryPowered

and it wasn't worth getting into a debate,

Did you ask him what he had and he said "no basket?" In that case, I probably agree with you.

Or, did you just decide not to ask? In that case, I think you were wrong -- this was a rules issue and needs to be discussed (not debated)

[BatteryPowered]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Did you ask him what he had and he said "no basket?" In that case, I probably agree with you.

Or, did you just decide not to ask? In that case, I think you were wrong -- this was a rules issue and needs to be discussed (not debated)

I did not ask...and yes, I should have. The score was 43-8 and the game was not nearly as close as the score indicates. My quick assessment was that I was the only person in the gym who knew he was probably wrong and everyone was accepting the call. I made an "executive decision" to just move along.

When I get home tonight I will have my wife give me 50 whacks with the rule book as pentence.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BatteryPowered

Had a situation last night and I need some guidance. I am T, middle of the 3rd quarter (Girls Varisty...not that it matters). A1 puts up a 3 point attempt and while the ball is in the air my partner calls A5 for a push. The attempt was good and I give the signal as my partner is coming out, waving his arms like a windmill in a hurricane. He waves off the basket and awards B the ball for a spot throw-in on the baseline. I thought the basket should have counted but at this point A was up by 35 and it wasn't worth getting into a debate...especially since the coach for A didn't make a sound.

After the game my partner didn't want to discuss the play. My rule book wasn't in my bag (that mistake has been corrected) and I forgot to look when I got home. Should the basket have counted? It was clearly in flight when the foul was committed.

Thanks,

On the court, I would have asked him whether the push occurred before the shot was released.

If I didn't ask during the game:
After the game, I would have asked him the same question.

If he doesn't want to discuss it, move on.

[ballgame99]

Count it. All day, everyday, twice on Sunday.

And what does it mean he doesn't want to discuss it? He actually said "i don't want to talk about it", or he just didn't agree wity your position?

[HokiePaul]

If you're partner is waving it off, it's possible that the foul occured before the release. That's why you have the brief discussion on the spot. I tell my partner "The ball went in -- the basket should count unless your foul occured before the release of the ball". If he waves the shot off then, there's not much you can do as you have to assume the calling official knows when the foul occured better than you do.


Question: Would this be a correctable error for erroneously counting or cancelling a score?

I'm thinking of the scenario where the calling official waves off the shot. The coach asks to correct within the allowable time. And the officials discuss and agree that the foul occured after the release.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BatteryPowered

Had a situation last night and I need some guidance. I am T, middle of the 3rd quarter (Girls Varisty...not that it matters). A1 puts up a 3 point attempt and while the ball is in the air my partner calls A5 for a push. The attempt was good and I give the signal as my partner is coming out, waving his arms like a windmill in a hurricane. He waves off the basket and awards B the ball for a spot throw-in on the baseline. I thought the basket should have counted but at this point A was up by 35 and it wasn't worth getting into a debate...especially since the coach for A didn't make a sound.

After the game my partner didn't want to discuss the play. My rule book wasn't in my bag (that mistake has been corrected) and I forgot to look when I got home. Should the basket have counted? It was clearly in flight when the foul was committed.

Thanks,

IMO, this is a ruling a varsity crew should know without having a rule book handy. If your partner doesn't want to discuss the play in the locker room, just like the coach who doesn't shake my hand, I will be having nothing but perfunctory conversation with him in the future.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

...


Question: Would this be a correctable error for erroneously counting or cancelling a score?

I'm thinking of the scenario where the calling official waves off the shot. The coach asks to correct within the allowable time. And the officials discuss and agree that the foul occured after the release.

If they disallowed the basket by misapplying the rule, yes it is correctable. If it was just a matter of the calling official saying that the foul occurred first, then changing his mind later, no it's just bad judgment and we can't go back an fix it.

[MD Longhorn]

Seems to me it's entirely possible the foul happened first - why else would he be emphatic about it. Since you didn't discuss it, how do you know. You say it's obvious the shot was first ... but if the shot was in your primary, and the foul in his ... how do you know? (And is it possible the foul he's calling was significantly earlier than whatever you THOUGHT he was calling ... again, in HIS primary, and not where you would be looking with a 3-pointer about to go up).

At the VERY least, while the timing was obvious to you, perhaps it was equally obvious (but opposite) to him...

I'm also curious to the exact situation regarding him not wanting to talk about it. Did you try? How? What did he say? Etc.

[paxsonref]

The ball went in -- the basket should count unless your foul occured before the release of the ball

This is incorrect. It does not matter when the foul occurs, it matters when the foul is CALLED. If the whistle has not blown, a foul has not happened, therefore when this play happens, if its in the air when the whistle blows, count it, regardless of when the illegal contact started.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by paxsonref

This is incorrect. It does not matter when the foul occurs, it matters when the foul is CALLED. If the whistle has not blown, a foul has not happened, therefore when this play happens, if its in the air when the whistle blows, count it, regardless of when the illegal contact started.

I am not sure what you are trying to say, but:

If the contact occured before the release and then the horn sounds before the release of the ball, the ball becomes dead when the horn sounds. Award two or three FTs depending upon the type of FG attempt. The official's whistle has no bearing on the play except to indicate that a Foul or Violation has occured.

MTD, Sr.

[paxsonref]

where does the post talk about the horn being involved? It is about a called foul on the release of a shot, correct?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by paxsonref

This is incorrect. It does not matter when the foul occurs, it matters when the foul is CALLED. If the whistle has not blown, a foul has not happened, therefore when this play happens, if its in the air when the whistle blows, count it, regardless of when the illegal contact started.

Disagree. It's when the foul happens.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by paxsonref

This is incorrect. It does not matter when the foul occurs, it matters when the foul is CALLED. If the whistle has not blown, a foul has not happened, therefore when this play happens, if its in the air when the whistle blows, count it, regardless of when the illegal contact started.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I am not sure what you are trying to say, but:

If the contact occured before the release and then the horn sounds before the release of the ball, the ball becomes dead when the horn sounds. Award two or three FTs depending upon the type of FG attempt. The official's whistle has no bearing on the play except to indicate that a Foul or Violation has occured.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by paxsonref

where does the post talk about the horn being involved? It is about a called foul on the release of a shot, correct?

I got ahead of myself and forgot that the OP was not an End of Period scenario. But your statement, which I have highlighted in red is incorrect. As I stated in my OP is that the whistle is a signal to let everybody know that a Foul or Violation has occured. The whistle is always sounded after the fact.

A1 attempts a 3-point FG. If: a) A5 commits a foul before A1 releases the ball A5's foul causes the ball to become Dead immediately, even if the official does not sound his whistle until after A1 releases the ball; and b) if A5 commits a foul after A1 releases the ball, the ball remains Live until the shot is successful or unsuccessful even when the official sounds his whistle.

MTD, Sr.