count the basket or not

[scat03]

team A has a sob at half court with 4 seconds on the clock, i administer the ball to player out of bounds and she throws the ball in play and i start a silent count to myself. when i get to 4 seconds , iam waiting for the horn and no horn, i get to 6 sec , shot goes up and the horn goes off at my count of 7sec. and the shot goes in. coach of the opposing team is vey upset that the clock was not started properly. what authority does the official have on counting the shot or on the clock at that point.... this is what i did in that game.... we went over to the table and spoke to the clock operator and he said the he in fact made an error and started the clock late. my partner then erased the two points and ended the quarter. yes or no

[tjones1]

5-10-2

5.10.2 Situation

[Adam]

I've done this. I always count in this situation, and the official can blow the whistle with definite knowledge to end the quarter.

Count to four, blow the whistle and announce the quarter has ended.

[Mregor]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I've done this. I always count in this situation, and the official can blow the whistle with definite knowledge to end the quarter.

Count to four, blow the whistle and announce the quarter has ended.

Much easier your way than taking the points off the board.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I've done this. I always count in this situation, and the official can blow the whistle with definite knowledge to end the quarter.

Count to four, blow the whistle and announce the quarter has ended.

If the clock doesn't show 1/10s of seconds, and idicates 0:04, then there is AT LEAST 4 seconds left (could be up to 4.9). So, you should count to 5.

[btaylor64]

why not check the clock as soon as the ball is thrown in? It is just a quick peek and if it doesn't start i think you still have to let the play finish out. Then you have your own knowledge, not just the operator, who might be too egotistical to say he/she started too late. If there is a PA announcer you tell him/her to announce that the clock had started late and the officials have ruled the basket no good. Snaqwells way might be easier but he is killing the play with time on the clock, even though in your head you know the time has actually passed.

Although i have done what snaqs has done in AAU and rec games, but only in sitches where the outcome is not affected.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

if the clock doesn't show 1/10s of seconds, and idicates 0:04, then there is at least 4 seconds left (could be up to 4.9). So, you should count to 5.

+1

[Scrapper1]

I thought I remembered something similar happening to me a while ago. Here's what I posted in this thread -- First AAU of the year -- back in May of '07:

3.4 seconds left in the first half. White inbounding, under the opponent's basket. They have to go the length of the floor to get the last shot off. Ball is inbounded, but the clock doesn't start. I count 3-2-1, kid shoots, miss, I blow the whistle. The clock is now running down, around 1.5. The White coach immediately points out that there is time still showing on the clock. I told him what happened and that I had counted it down myself. He informs me that I can't do that, and in 45 years of coaching has never seen it happen. I told him that I could, in fact, do that. At which point, he informed me, "That's not your job!" The exchange ended shortly after that.

Early in the second half, he kid drives out of control to the basket, throws up a wild shot and the other team gets the rebound. I'm Trail in front of his bench. The coach says, "That's not a foul?!?!" I know I shouldn't have, but I couldn't help myself. I answered,

"Don't worry about it, Coach. That's not your job."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

why not check the clock as soon as the ball is thrown in? It is just a quick peek and if it doesn't start i think you still have to let the play finish out. Then you have your own knowledge, not just the operator, who might be too egotistical to say he/she started too late. If there is a PA announcer you tell him/her to announce that the clock had started late and the officials have ruled the basket no good. Snaqwells way might be easier but he is killing the play with time on the clock, even though in your head you know the time has actually passed.

Although i have done what snaqs has done in AAU and rec games, but only in sitches where the outcome is not affected.

I did it in a varsity boys game, end of first quarter. My partner, our area director and representative for the state's IAABO, who was placed on my game specifically to evaluate me, said it showed great game awareness. I'd do it again.

I'm still not sure what you would have done differently than I did.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by scat03

team A has a sob at half court with 4 seconds on the clock

The coach was at half court!

Seriously, in a situation like this, before you put the ball in play, turn to the table and tell the clock operator to start the clock on your hand drop. Then, also take a quick peek at the clock to make sure it starts properly.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I did it in a varsity boys game, end of first quarter. My partner, our area director and representative for the state's IAABO, who was placed on my game specifically to evaluate me, said it showed great game awareness. I'd do it again.

I'm still not sure what you would have done differently than I did.

I agree I think it shows great awareness but I'm not going to kill play in the 1st 2nd 3rd or at the end of the 4th when it can decide the outcome if there is time remaining on the clock whether it be erroneous or not.

I'm going to let everything play out till the 00:0 hit or there is some break in the action and then I'm going to gather my crew, reconstruct the play and decide whether the basket should count or not.

I don't want to make a decision like that when 3 heads (hopefully my partners were as aware as I was) are better than 1.

I'm not saying I'm totally against what you did but I would prefer to do it this way.

[Adam]

Fair enough, but if I'm sure there are only 5 seconds left, and I count to 6, I don't need the other two heads any more than you do. My way, you don't have to worry about erasing a made basket.

[dbking]

I think that you handled well. I learned the lesson many years ago in the championship game of an AAU tournament. All kinds of D1 coaches in the gym and D1 referees evaluating the game during a ref camp.

5 seconds to go, long before we thought of putting tenths on the board. Team A has throw in and down 1 point from halfcourt. Ball is thrown into to A2 at top of key. A1, the throw in person gets a screen and cuts to bucket for another screen and pops out to the elbow. She buries the shot.

I look at clock from opposite and Trail position. Clock is dead. I blow whistle. We tell teams to go to benches, the three of us meet in center court. We talk for a few seconds and two D1 guys enter the huddle. Standard question, "What do you guys have?" None of us knew how long. They said first lesson, always count the last 5 seconds of every quarter. If none of us knew, the next thing was to use our team mates at the table. The 5 of us went to table. The clock man, paid employee of tournament, said the clock went dead when the clock went to zero. Shooter had just received the pass. We asked him if he had started the clock on time. He said yes. How confident was he that the clock was at zero. He said 100%. The D1 guys said wipe it off. We called coaches together and told them the outcome. One was happy, one was mad.

The post game conference was:

Always count last 5 seconds.
Always have off official from throw in see that the clock starts.
If you have no horn and you are 110% sure the time is out, blow whistle.
Always use all of your resources in the gym, different levels have different resources.

I have lived by this ever since. In 15 years since that date, I have had to use it less than a dozen times, but I have always counted.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Fair enough, but if I'm sure there are only 5 seconds left, and I count to 6, I don't need the other two heads any more than you do. My way, you don't have to worry about erasing a made basket.

In that case, I hope that you were the Referee because if you weren't, then you do need at least one other head according to the rule.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In that case, I hope that you were the Referee because if you weren't, then you do need at least one other head according to the rule.

Which part? Declaring the quarter over, or wiping the basket?
That's why I just end it now, then there's no official disagreeing with me for wiping the basket.